John 12:25: Literally or Figuratively?

[Della]

The Holy Bible and religious tradition are often complex in nature. Having two views of the same concept can often shed new light on that concept. Again, the Jews are the real masters in much of the Old Testament.

Note that I don’t see the World-to-Come as being evil.

I would have to disagree that the Jews, who are unenlightened as to the fulfillment Christ brought to it, as the “real masters” of the OT. And if two views can shed light, why reject the Church’s view, which is informed by the life, death and resurrection instead of on the Old Covenant fulfilled in Christ? As a Catholic that makes little sense to me.

And of course the world to come won’t be evil, and the natural world in which we live isn’t either. It is tainted because of Adam’s sin, but it was not created to be so, but to be a blessing and life-giving, as it clearly states in Genesis.

I am not going to go around and around with you because I believe debating is pointless. I’m not here to debate anyone, but to simply state what the Church states since this is a Catholic forum. So, I’m unsubscribing and leaving it at that.

 

[chosen_people]

As G. K. Chesterton once wrote, “The purpose of an open mind is to close it upon something solid.”

Of course some Jews are going to have contrary commentaries since they do not accept Jesus as the Messiah. Some even go so far as to deny there was ever supposed to be a Messiah. The Jews of Jesus’ own day couldn’t agree among themselves. IOW, there is no clear consensus among them and never has been.

We either believe Christ and the Church he established or we don’t. When it comes to conflicting definitions, I’ll take the Church’s over anyone else’s every time.

This is just another reason why everyone dislikes the Jews. Every Sunday, all over the world, we have Christians getting up and taking the trouble to explain the Jewish scriptures to the Jews and to everyone else. On the other hand, the stingy Jews of today, can’t find it in their hearts to spare even a single Rabbi to explain the Christian scriptures to Christians.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Nah, that’s the definition of purgatory – you know that you’re guaranteed to eventually get there, but it might take a while, and it ain’t fun while you’re waiting…

Ah! But still part of “eternal life!”

 

[Julia_Mae]

For the most part, I like your post. However, I still think we ought to hate this world. Note that God does not call the world good, but very good. I say this because in Judaism, the term “very good” is qualitatively different from good, and it denotes evil. In other words, the world itself is evil.

I have an excerpt from a Jewish encyclopedia that spells this out in detail and I can post it if you or anybody else wishes. It’s an interesting read and one learns the concept of evil in Judaism is quite different from what is present in Catholicism.

I’d be very interested in reading it.

But, as much as I’d like to be able to leave this place and go on to the next, I have to take issue with hating the world.

The world isn’t good or bad, IMO, it just is. People, well, we do torment one another and make these terrible selfish choices, and scrabble around for worldly goods and do all the things that make being here a torture. Yet, we still can’t hate the “world” as in including the people, because then we hate the people. Jesus told us not to.

The world is our path to God.

 

[Julia_Mae]

That does even make any sense. How can something be “very good” mean it is evil? And why are you, a non-theologian, bothering with Jewish encyclopedias? How about reading the words in context. …

That would work if the words were written in English in the last century. But if you want to know what the ancient writer intended to convey, you need to look at the language and meanings of the words in that language.

 

[Julia_Mae]

This is just another reason why everyone dislikes the Jews. Every Sunday, all over the world, we have Christians getting up and taking the trouble to explain the Jewish scriptures to the Jews and to everyone else. On the other hand, the stingy Jews of today, can’t find it in their hearts to spare even a single Rabbi to explain the Christian scriptures to Christians.

Well, “everyone” doesn’t hate the Jews, obviously. And there are two New Testaments and also a full Scripture translations by Jews for Christians with commentaries. I am hoping to get one soon:

The Jewish Annotated New Testament

Then there’s the whole David Stern series.

 

[Cristiano]

That does even make any sense. How can something be “very good” mean it is evil? …

Don’t a lot of English speakers use the expression “that’s so bad” to say that something is really good?

 

[Robert_Sock]

That does even make any sense. How can something be “very good” mean it is evil? And why are you, a non-theologian, bothering with Jewish encyclopedias? How about reading the words in context. The whole first chapter is about God creating the world, populating it and making it habitable for mankind. However could any of that be “evil”? I would say that if a “definition” flies in the very teeth of the context then you’ve either misunderstood it or it is simply wrong.

NATURAL IMPULSE
THE good impulse (yetser tov) and the evil impulse (yetser ra) are pictured in Jewish literature as wrestling in perpetual conflict within the heart of man. Satan is usually identified with the yetser ha-ra, the evil impulse. In the book of Job, Satan’s function is described as that of testing the sincerity of men’s characters. In Talmudic literature, Satan’s function is to strengthen man’s moral sense by leading him into temptation. It has been said that every man living shall assuredly meet with an hour of temptation, a certain critical hour, which shall more especially try his mettle.

According to a midrashic statement (Genesis Rabbah 9:9), the existence of the yetser ha-ra in the heart of man and the struggle to overcome it lends high value to the good that emerges from the inner battle. The two conflicting impulses, the good and bad tendencies, are said to be implanted in man as a consequence of his having been formed from the dust and endowed with a soul (Genesis 2:7).

According to rabbinic thinking, the evil impulse is to be found in man at birth; the good impulse begins to develop when he is thirteen years old. The teachings of the Torah are referred to as the antidote to the yetser ha-ra. Similarly, Ben Sira (21:11) states: “The man who keeps the Law controls his natural tendency.”

In commenting on the two yods in the word " ", (Genesis 2:7), the rabbis declare that God created both the yetser tov and the yetser ra (Berakhoth 61a). The command to love God “with all your heart” they interpret to mean “with both your impulses” (Berakhoth Ma), since both human elements can be employed in the service of God. “Were it not for the yetser ha-ra, no man would build a home or get married or follow an occupation” (Genesis Rabbah 9:9). **The phrase “very good” (Genesis 1:31) is therefore explained, as alluding to the yetser ha-ra, frequently used in the sense of the productive urge.
**
Taken from the Encyclopedia of Jewish Concepts

Genesis 1:31
And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.

 

[Usagi]

In commenting on the two yods in the word " ", (Genesis 2:7), the rabbis declare that God created both the yetser tov and the yetser ra (Berakhoth 61a). The command to love God “with all your heart” they interpret to mean “with both your impulses” (Berakhoth Ma), since both human elements can be employed in the service of God. “Were it not for the yetser ha-ra, no man would build a home or get married or follow an occupation” (Genesis Rabbah 9:9). The phrase “very good” (Genesis 1:31) is therefore explained, as alluding to the yetser ha-ra, frequently used in the sense of the productive urge.

Okay, but in that case, the yetzer ha-ra is not entirely evil as we usually use the term. Your excerpt even says that both impulses can be used in God’s service, and that it’s the “evil” one that drives us to accomplish things.

To use a rather strange (but fitting) comparison, the yetzer ha-ra is “evil” in the same way as “Evil Kirk” in the old Star Trek episode in which Kirk was split in two. His “evil” half was aggressive and unpleasant, but without that part his “good” half could not make the command decisions he needed to do his job. Now I wonder if the writer of the episode had the Jewish concept you mention in mind.

So, even though “very good” in Genesis may include the productive urge from the yetzer ha-ra, that doesn’t mean God is declaring the pre-fall world evil. The fallen world, like the flesh and the devil, can be a source of sin, but even then “the world” should probably not be understood to mean the entirety of Creation itself, just as “the flesh” when used negatively doesn’t literally mean that our bodies are evil.

Usagi