John 2:4 "my hour has not yet come" what does this mean?

[rwillenborg]

If an answer exist, I am willing to bet that it is found “outside” of the bible, and therefore in Tradition. The early Church fathers held the Bible (Old Testament because the New Testament didn’t even exist yet) and Tradition (spoken word) as equals. Nothing was written down when these happened or when Jesus spoke. But the Apostles were paying attention and remembered His teachings.

So, maybe St Polycarp (whom St John taught) or St. Irenaeus (whom St Polycarp taught) wrote something about this. If not them, then surely some Church Fathers have. I will do a little digging

I still think it is a reference to His crucifixion. Who knows if we even have all that was said. Seems like a pretty short conversation.

"When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” And Jesus said to her, “O Woman, what have you to do with me*? My hour has not yet come.” His mother said to the servants, “Do what ever he tells you.” John 2:3-5
*
What have you to do with me? : What is that to you or to me? While this expression always implies a divergence of view, the precise meaning is to be determined by the context, which here shows that it is not an unqualified refusal, still less a rebuke.

That is why my bible says, but I am no scholar.

If you find anything in your digging, please make sure to post it! I’ll see if a google search turns up anything, though usually what I’ve been finding is more of an interpretation of ‘woman’ or ‘my time’ (which at least from what I am finding, most people are in agreement with you that this refers to his crucifixion) or ‘what have you to do with me?’ I haven’t found anything explaining the passage as a whole, or my particular questions with it.
Regarding the ‘what have you to do with me’ statement - I know some people DO in fact understand that as a rebuke Jesus made to his mother. But, that, too, makes no sense to me. Why would Jesus break his own commandment against honoring his father and mother? NO good son I know would EVER EVER rebuke his own mother, so I certainly don’t think Jesus would!

 

[ryanoneil]

During the Passion Jesus says this is the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. The commemoration of that hour is the eucharistic liturgy, where Christ is behind the visible sign of wine. The transformation of water into wine anticipates the transubstantiation of wine into blood. The eucharistic liturgy is the wedding feast of the Lamb which looks beyond this life to eternity.

 

[rwillenborg]

During the Passion Jesus says this is the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. The commemoration of that hour is the eucharistic liturgy, where Christ is behind the visible sign of wine. The transformation of water into wine anticipates the transubstantiation of wine into blood. The eucharistic liturgy is the wedding feast of the Lamb which looks beyond this life to eternity.

You know what’s funny? I JUST finished reading Scott Hahn’s book Lamb’s Supper and he talks ALL ABOUT how Revelation makes little sense OUTSIDE of the context of the eucharistic liturgy. I should have guessed this was something of the same.
Okay, okay, this leads to another question then - when he said that, did Mary know what he was talking about? My guess is no, and, I know we can’t KNOW for sure, but, again, I know other people here have probably pondered this very same question. And of course, now that I’m thinking about this even more - the Mass is our wedding feast with Christ, and here it is, his first miracle, a wedding feast! You’ve given me SOO Much to think about!!
I have to be very honest here, and I am sorry if I offend anyone, but when I read this passage, I can’t help but think of the Catholic tradition of asking the saints (and particularly Mary) for their intercession. I know many people believe that it’s unbiblical to ask Mary for intercession but I have trouble understanding that in light of this passage. Somehow Mary catches wind that the wine’s all gone and ALL SHE SAYS to her son is ‘They’re out of wine’ She doesn’t even ASK him to do anything about it, she merely states the fact, and he goes and performs his first miracle! How much more intercessory of an example are people looking for?
I think the crux of the issue regarding the saints, and Mary, of course, is that they’re dead. But, again, I know the catholic response is that ANY person who is enjoying eternal life with Jesus is about as far from dead as anyone can be.

I don’t want to derail my own thread and there are TONS AND TONS of threads about the saints, but I’m really looking to try to understand this passage, but one of the ways that I understand this passage is to be one of the power of intercession!

 

[ryanoneil]

I don’t want to derail my own thread and there are TONS AND TONS of threads about the saints, but I’m really looking to try to understand this passage, but one of the ways that I understand this passage is to be one of the power of intercession!

There is a ton of symbolism in this story. The intercession aspect is definately one. This episode is the reverse image of Genesis 3. As Eve prompted Adam to defy the Lord and drag the human family into sin, Mary prompts Jesus, the new Adam, to initiate his mission of salvation. The allusion is calling her woman which Yahweh also uses here

I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel." (Gen 3:15)

The significance of the marriage being on the third day is actually the seventh day of Jesus’ opening week of ministry. And John is implying that the creation fashioned in seven days is being transformed and renewed through Jesus. The other significance is Jesus manifests his glory by rising on the third day after his death.

 

[rwillenborg]

There is a ton of symbolism in this story. The intercession aspect is definately one. This episode is the reverse image of Genesis 3. As Eve prompted Adam to defy the Lord and drag the human family into sin, Mary prompts Jesus, the new Adam, to initiate his mission of salvation. The allusion is calling her woman which Yahweh also uses here

I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel." (Gen 3:15)

The significance of the marriage being on the third day is actually the seventh day of Jesus’ opening week of ministry. And John is implying that the creation fashioned in seven days is being transformed and renewed through Jesus. The other significance is Jesus manifests his glory by rising on the third day after his death.

I didn’t even think about the significance of the days! So much more to think about! Thanks!!

 

[ryanoneil]

And this story associates Jesus with other OT patriarchs. His first sign (water into wine) also recalls the first sign by Moses (water into blood) because He is the new Moses. Wine is called the “blood” of the grape.

**He tethers his donkey to the vine, his purebred *** to the choicest stem. In wine he washes his garments his robe in the blood of grapes. (Gen 49:11)

Butter from its cows and milk from its sheep, with the fat of its lambs and rams; Its Bashan bulls and its goats, with the cream of its finest wheat; and the foaming blood of its grapes you drank. (Deut 32:14)**

And when Mary says “do whatever he tells you,” this command to follow Jesus echoes the command to follow Joseph when he provided in a time of need.

When hunger came to be felt throughout the land of Egypt and the people cried to Pharaoh for bread, Pharaoh directed all the Egyptians to go to Joseph and do whatever he told them. (Gen 41:55)

 

[ryanoneil]

I didn’t even think about the significance of the days! So much more to think about! Thanks!!

Another connection with the days is related to the six stone jars which held water for purification. Their purpose is outlined here usccb.org/nab/bible/numbers/numbers19.htm#v11

This stipulates that any Israelite defiled by contact with the dead must be purified with water on the third and seventh day. Combine this with the renewal of creation and Christ pointing forward to his Passion and our dying and rising with him in the washing of baptism and the story is loaded with more imagery.

 

[Danno2281]

“Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in you womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end.” Luke 1: 30-33

Mary probably did not know that Jesus was God, she knew He would be the Son of God. Of course, it is dangerous to assume either way, as the Holy Spirit could have easily told Mary that Jesus was God, namely the Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all One God.

It seems that Elizabeth knew that He was God when she addresses Mary as “mother of my Lord,” which Lord could only have been the Lord God for this wife of the priest of God Zacchary. And if Elizabeth knew and Mary understood Elizabeth’s words, Mary also knew.
John closes this narrative by stating that this is the first of Jesus signs, the signs of the coming of the Messianic promise, the hour for the proclamation of that fulfillment. At the behest of His mother, Jesus alters the plan (which always foreknew her request) to make obvious to us the great advocate on our behalf that we have in in that mother. Raymond E. Brown,SS, whose early reputation as a genuuine Catholic scholar has suffered from some “advanced” musings into scriptural psychobabble, makes some fine points in a 1960 publication, pointing out that Mary appears only twice in John’s gospel - at the beginning and at the close of Christ’s mission. He adds to that the consideration of the word “woman” as found in Genesis and in John, noting that John, from the very first word of his gospel (and many others) keeps Genesis before us, and points out that Christ’s response to Mary’s request becomes the beginning of the disciples’ faith, a living faith, nurtured by the new “mother of all that live.”

 

[PJM]

=rwillenborg;6142366]So, several of you have said that when Jesus says ‘my hour has not yet come’ he is referring to his passion, but to me that doesn’t make any sense.
Mary tells Jesus they’ve run out of wine. Why tell her it’s not his time to die? She wasn’t suggesting that it was, so why even say that?
And if instead if by ‘his time’ he is suggesting the start of his mnistry, again, why say it’s not time to start performing miracles and then go ahead and perform a miracle?
I hope I’m not beating a dead horse here, I really do appreciate everyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut on this question (I can’t make it to a bible study, so you all are the closest thing I’ve got!!) but, as expected, the answers lead to more questions.
And I think it IS telling that this appears in John’s gospel, considering his special relationship to mary. Lots for me to ponder, but if anyone can offer further insight on the questions about I would really appreciate it.

Perhaps it would be good to keep in mind that we are speaking of an ALL WISE, ALL KNOWING GOD

***There is little doubt that Jesus did not wish to be a cause of embarassment to His Mother.

There is also a profound message hidden in this set of events. By virtue of Motherhood [to a king], mothers became Queens. Mothers were held in very high esteem.

Mary by her actions [on behalf of all humanity] effectively was not simply initiating Her Son’s Public Ministry; she also was setting into progress His Passion and death, although she would not realize this until later.

It is quite compelling that Divine Providence, took a ceremony of Love and permited it to become the greatest act of Love known to humanity up until this point in history.

We must keep in mind also that to this point, Christ had not revealed His Divine Nature, and humanly speaking, he was not ready for this to become known. In a sense, this was thrust upon his HUMAN nature, by the Divine Nature of the Father. “NOT my will but thine be done.” And it always was.

A reluctance [humanly speaking] yes; but a WILLINGNESS to not allow, not permit His human nature, to control His Godly Nature. An example for us not to say NO to God.

Love and prayers,

Pat

.***

 

[Edakulathur]

shalomonline.net/shalomtidings/-articles/item/4836-my-hour-has-not-yet-come

My hour has not yet come
Featured in Shalom Tidings Jan-Feb 2012
Written by* Johnson Edakalathur

He might be meaning also that it is not in the Will of the Father at this hour to intervene. He has not received the communication or message from the Holy Spirit to intervene at that hour.

One excuse, Jesus gives is in John 2: 3-5 and that is to His Mother.
Mother Mary is at her relative’s marriage eve at Cana. She finds a family crisis – shortage of wine and the banquet is being served. She discerns the inspiration to intervene.

We see a few conflicts here. First conflict is; Mary presents the prayer on behalf of her “needy neighbour”, who is in a crisis. We know the sensitivity of a crisis when we run out of food during a marriage banquet.

The Drama of Salvation works in many ways, as nothing is impossible to the Father. He has many ways, and many doors to shower His Grace into a crisis. My hypothesis is that Mother Mary received the message of courage directly from Holy Spirit. We also know that Gabriel announced her as “Full of Grace” – confirming that she is filled with Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit is the Spouse from whom she conceived Jesus. Inspired by Holy Spirit, she ignores the “verbal resistance” or “excuses” of Jesus and continues to plough the field of crisis with her tool of intercession, to harvest a solution – a miracle.***
His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.”

Mary, thus resolved the conflict, by her positive prayer into the situation. She takes command of the situation and powers Jesus indirectly, with “whatever He says to you do it”. My hypothesis is that Holy Spirit revealed to Mary to issue that powerfull Word, not direct to Jesus; but to the servants, and thus indirectly announce to Jesus. She is careful not to overrule Jesus or dis-obey Jesus. Neither is she intimidating Jesus as His mother. She gently plays the crisis and solution to the court of Jesus, and announces loudly that we should surrender the situation in its fullness to Jesus and wait for His instructions, even if Jesus apparently disowns us or the crisis.*

This puts her Gift of Courage (confidence to negotiate with God like Abraham), she received from the “Full of Grace” status at its best. Jesus would discerned the fruits of the Holy Spirit in that Word “Whatever He says to you, do it.” . That Word, satisfies the nine constants which reveals the presence of Holy Spirit -faith, kindness, patience, goodness, humility, self-control, love, joy and peace.* And Jesus would have consulted Holy Sprit at that hour. And Holy Spirit would have revealed the plan of God for that event and hour. The Charism for Jesus to perform the first miracle has been unlocked by the words of Holy Spirit speaking through Mary. “Whatever He says to you, do it.” Which effectively was the passWord and discernment key empowering Jesus.

And we know Jesus performed his first miracle once the event and situation was discerned for Jesus, by Mary with the inspiration of Holy Spirit. This model of effective communication by Mary with Holy Spirit-Son-Father demonstrates , one way in which we operate the Gifts and Charisms received from of Holy Spirit at our baptism, confirmation, Holy Mass.*

We observe here two persons who are filled with Holy Spirit. First is Mary (as she was confirmed Full of Grace status by Angel Gabriel earlier) and the Second is Jesus (who received Holy Spirit at his baptism by John The Baptist). Both with the congregation (friends, relatives, disciples) are present at the hour, at the event, at the situation. Each then waits on the message from the Holy Spirit. Jesus did not express the message first, but Mary expressed first. She announced the message to the servants and thus to Jesus. And Jesus humbly validated that message with Holy Spirit and delivers the Glory of God into the crisis at the Marriage at Cana. We should also earnestly pray in a difficult situation where we have the intercessory role of a “good neighour” like Mary discerned from Holy Spirit and communicate the message to Jesus and advise appropriately “do what Jesus says”.* En-trust Jesus and press for the solution - “Do what He says”. That is effectively what we do in a Rosary. Rosary thus is a prayer which helps Jesus to move the hour into our favour.

Especially when our prayer situation continues without favour, when the hour for result is not yet visible, rosary is the right resort. We thus also discern the origin of rosary at the first miracle of Jesus –at Cana. It may not be in excess, if we assert that it was the first rosary which unlocked the Charism of Holy Spirit to Jesus.

Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us to Jesus when we run out of wine while we have to continue to serve wine to our community, society, friends, families. Pray for us to Jesus, especially when we do not have enough love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, humility and self control to descend the relevant Charism of Holy Spirit into our day to day situations at each of our daily hours.