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ChurchSoldier
Guest
Amen to that!
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KP3243
Guest
Considering the Catholic Church created the Bible in the 400s by compiling the gospels and letters from the ancient churches that were established by the apostles with the sacred scripture from the Jewish people there isn’t a single sentence in the Bible that is contradictory to what Catholics believe and practice.
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Prayer_Warrior
Guest
If, by the sinner’s prayer, you mean a prayer where you acknowledge Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and that you are a sinner and that you repent of your sins and you want to walk in His way, then I think that is terrific. I think all Christians should pray a version of that as a profession of faith-- every day if they can. Catholics do pray in this way at the Mass, but a personal version of this is fine and dandy. What Catholics object to (in general) is the notion that praying this prayer once “saves you”. You have already stated that you don’t believe that, so that is good— because OSAS is a very dangerous doctrine of false assurances.
John 3:16 touches on this issue with the part about “whosoever believes in Him”, but remember that John 3:16 is one verse out of a whole teaching on baptism and faith. Yes, we need to have faith to be saved, but that acknowledgement of faith (as demonstrated with a sinner’s prayer) is just the beginning of walking with the Lord. Well, let me back up, when you are born again of water and Spirit (baptized) that is really the beginning. However, since so many of us are baptized as infants or children, it really is good to make that decision to follow Jesus for yourself at some point. But professing it is only part of what we need to do. We also need to go out and LIVE that prayer-- We live our faith, we live in repentance (hopefully), we live our lives following Jesus’ instructions to be merciful, loving, etc…
Keep in mind that Catholics believe in the Sacraments. If you are non-denom Christian or protestant, you may have a very limited notion of the Sacraments. But in short, the Sacraments are an outward sign of an inward grace. God grants real and transforming grace through the Sacraments. So, we believe that the Sacrament of Baptism really and truly cleanses our soul of sin, and gives us an indelible spiritual mark as a child of God (This is called the domincus character). When we receive the Sacrament of the Eucharist we are receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of the Lord. He is Life and the author of Life so by receiving Him, we will have His Life in us. If one does not receive Him, they have no life in them (see John 6). So our life in the Sacraments is part of us living that prayer. Hope that makes sense.
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NeedImprovement
Guest
Maybe it would help to know that not all non-Catholics put that much stock in the sinner’s prayer, (although I’ve personally always had high regard for Billy Graham’s ministry).
There’s a (non-Catholic) treament of the question from David P.Brown of The Churches of Christ.com at the following link : Does the Bible Teach that “The Sinners Prayer” is the Way of Salvation?
To expound a little on what graceandglory posted-
Perhaps in certain cases that prayer may be better than nothing for someone who is without much instruction and who wishes to change or feels moved to change. However it is also true that the prayer’s wording has the potential to trip some people up. If we focus a moment on this part of the wording :
That’s where I think the Sinner’s Prayer can become unhinged a bit - in where it can be confused with Baptism and in someone trying to self-administer the “Born Again” (“I confess with my mouth that I am born again.”) There are some elements of this prayer that could inspire gratitude in those of us who are Catholic :
We are indeed “cleansed by the Blood of Jesus” each time we “repent” and receive the sacrament of Reconciliation. The formula of absolution reassures us we are forgiven when the priest imparts it. Consider the Sinner’s Prayer in light of the sacrament of Reconciliation a moment. (All ensuing quotes in green taken from the same Catholic Encyclopedia article - The Sacrament of Penance ):
A sacrament consists of *form *and matter . According to the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, c. 3) , , , : “the acts of the penitent, namely contrition, confession, and satisfaction, are the quasi materia of this sacrament”.
Concerning the form of this sacrament ,". . . both the Council of Florence and the Council of Trent teach that it consists in the words of absolution. “The form of the Sacrament of penance, wherein its force principally consists, is placed in those words of the minister: “I absolve thee, etc.”; to these words indeed, in accordance with the usage of Holy Church, certain prayers are laudably added, but they do not pertain to the essence of the form nor are they necessary for the administration of the sacrament” (Council of Trent, Sess. XIV, c. 3)."
When we receive the sacrament of Reconciliation it is because we have a sense (purpose or intention) of amendment. I see a similar sentiment expressed in these words of the Sinner’s Prayer - “I repent of my Sins and will Worship you all the day’s of my Life.”
When I scrutinize *The Sinner’s Prayer *contrasted against the sacrament of Reconciliation , it seems to me that the one who prays it could easily have all the prerequisite dispositions - a repentant heart, but with no Catholic faith to guide them or to adhere to and no minister or sacrament which imparts absolution to him/her . It makes me very grateful that I’m a Catholic, and a little bit sad that the one who prays the Sinner’s Prayer is not.
There’s a (non-Catholic) treament of the question from David P.Brown of The Churches of Christ.com at the following link : Does the Bible Teach that “The Sinners Prayer” is the Way of Salvation?
To expound a little on what graceandglory posted-
Perhaps in certain cases that prayer may be better than nothing for someone who is without much instruction and who wishes to change or feels moved to change. However it is also true that the prayer’s wording has the potential to trip some people up. If we focus a moment on this part of the wording :
Our Blessed Lord Jesus is clear that we have to be “born again” by *water and by the Spirit *- John 3:5 is not meant to be any more complicated than that. And we can’t baptize ourselves - someone else must do it for us - although if someone should die with no opportunity for Baptism, the desire for it would suffice .
That’s where I think the Sinner’s Prayer can become unhinged a bit - in where it can be confused with Baptism and in someone trying to self-administer the “Born Again” (“I confess with my mouth that I am born again.”) There are some elements of this prayer that could inspire gratitude in those of us who are Catholic :
We are indeed “cleansed by the Blood of Jesus” each time we “repent” and receive the sacrament of Reconciliation. The formula of absolution reassures us we are forgiven when the priest imparts it. Consider the Sinner’s Prayer in light of the sacrament of Reconciliation a moment. (All ensuing quotes in green taken from the same Catholic Encyclopedia article - The Sacrament of Penance ):
A sacrament consists of *form *and matter . According to the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, c. 3) , , , : “the acts of the penitent, namely contrition, confession, and satisfaction, are the quasi materia of this sacrament”.
Concerning the form of this sacrament ,". . . both the Council of Florence and the Council of Trent teach that it consists in the words of absolution. “The form of the Sacrament of penance, wherein its force principally consists, is placed in those words of the minister: “I absolve thee, etc.”; to these words indeed, in accordance with the usage of Holy Church, certain prayers are laudably added, but they do not pertain to the essence of the form nor are they necessary for the administration of the sacrament” (Council of Trent, Sess. XIV, c. 3)."
When we receive the sacrament of Reconciliation it is because we have a sense (purpose or intention) of amendment. I see a similar sentiment expressed in these words of the Sinner’s Prayer - “I repent of my Sins and will Worship you all the day’s of my Life.”
When I scrutinize *The Sinner’s Prayer *contrasted against the sacrament of Reconciliation , it seems to me that the one who prays it could easily have all the prerequisite dispositions - a repentant heart, but with no Catholic faith to guide them or to adhere to and no minister or sacrament which imparts absolution to him/her . It makes me very grateful that I’m a Catholic, and a little bit sad that the one who prays the Sinner’s Prayer is not.
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IneedGod
Guest
Yes, I agree that Catholic teaching should follow, along with babtism, you are not to stop with the sinners prayer but to go on to live a life that would lead to salvation. Shouldnt they first though come to know their savior? ( I dont mean to argue or seem dense)
My question was just concerning some one with NO spiritual background. It is a bit confusing to me at this point. I have come to believe in confession to a priest but what of those who have never had any spiritual teaching or leanings? For instance, I am in RCIA and one person who is no longer in the program had NO IDEA about anything. The Mass was way above them. I did not understand why they did not start there with that person although it is possible they may have done that privately with the teaching that they must go forward from there.
My question was just concerning some one with NO spiritual background. It is a bit confusing to me at this point. I have come to believe in confession to a priest but what of those who have never had any spiritual teaching or leanings? For instance, I am in RCIA and one person who is no longer in the program had NO IDEA about anything. The Mass was way above them. I did not understand why they did not start there with that person although it is possible they may have done that privately with the teaching that they must go forward from there.
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Bookcat
Guest
We propose Jesus of Nazareth …to come to know him…to know his love…to come to love him and to have true life in him through his death and resurrection…
The Gospel is to be proclaimed–Jesus Christ is to be proclaimed…and by one grace comes faith and repentance …leading to baptism into Christ Jesus.
We come to know Jesus – and then can come to know him more and more…
“Faith opens us to knowing and welcoming the real identity of Jesus, his newness and oneness, his word, as a source of life, in order to live a personal relationship with him. Knowledge of the faith grows, it grows with the desire to find the way and in the end it is a gift of God who does not reveal himself to us as an abstract thing without a face or a name, because faith responds to a Person who wants to enter into a relationship of deep love with us and to involve our whole life.”
–Pope Benedict XVI
Sunday, 14 August 2011
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JRKH
Guest
You are not being dense. Certainly they should come to know Jesus first.
From what I understand of RCIA, it is not really designed for this. Generally, people come to “know Christ” privately or under the tutelage of a friend. RCIA is designed more for bringing these people the next steps…into full communion with the Body of believers in the Church.
In other words, those who come to RCIA are already beyond the “sinners prayer” point.
Peace
James
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KP3243
Guest
I think this is a hard question for Catholics to ask especially cradle Catholics we believe in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist it doesn’t get any closer than consuming the body blood sould and divinity of Jesus. Pope Benedict’s pontificat has been dedicated to bring people even closer to Jesus. His Third book in his Jesus of Nazareth trilogy is coming out soon it is about Jesus’ childhood.
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minkymurph
Guest
I don’t understand this. 
How does on get from this scripture to God has decided in advance whether we go to heaven or hell?
If I understood that, perhaps I may understand the OP’s original question. What am I missing?
Admitting I may be totally on the wrong track, but surely belief in Jesus is neccesary to participate in the Eucharist? Why would one believe in Real Presence and fully participate in the Eucharist if one did not believe in Jesus in the first place? Am I way off?
How does on get from this scripture to God has decided in advance whether we go to heaven or hell?
If I understood that, perhaps I may understand the OP’s original question. What am I missing?
Admitting I may be totally on the wrong track, but surely belief in Jesus is neccesary to participate in the Eucharist? Why would one believe in Real Presence and fully participate in the Eucharist if one did not believe in Jesus in the first place? Am I way off?
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in_servitude
Guest
Yes, what **is **meant by belief? That is something that could use more air time. I think I’ve heard the comment on demons before - but it hit me differently this time.
Thanks for this thought - very helpful!
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Bookcat
Guest
Pope Benedict XVI on Paul and Faith …
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html (scroll down)
and earlier one vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html
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JRKH
Guest
You are welcome.
As Bookcat has indicated with some links, there is much written on this subject and it is good to read up on it.
But as you indicate by your response, there are times in our lives - moments - when something “hits us” differently…It begins to sink in…Something that we have glossed over, or taken for granted for years is suddenly called to our attention and our soul says…Hey LOOK at this and reflect on it.
This is what we hope for and, in some measure, what we mean by infusion. It is that coming to a deeper understanding, not intellectually by reading and regurgitating, but rather spiritually by an infused understanding that sometimes no words can express - - yet it is now so much a part of your being that you instinctively act on it.
And THAT"s Growth.
Peace
James
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Michael_Allen
Guest
Hi,
I think the sinners’ prayer is a fine place to start - it recognises a need for redemption from personal sin, and recongises Jesus Christ as the fount of that redemption.
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IneedGod
Guest
Thank you, that is really what I was talking about.
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johnnyjones
Guest
I would say it is more accurate to state that Catholics embrace the totality of scripture along with tradition. Isolating John 3:16 without looking at supporting verses is not scripture in toto.
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JRKH
Guest
This is very true, but it would be an error to assume that our Sola Scriptura brothers and sisters do not try to embrace the totality of Scripture as well. They most certainly do.
Unfortunately many are hampered by some erroneous fundamental principles…The rejection of the biblical principle of an authoritative Church being a biggie…
Peace
James
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johnnyjones
Guest
Your absolutely right.
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jmcrae
Guest
Not all.
I have three in my group this year who didn’t know about the existence of God before their first RCIA meeting. Two of them have still never been to Mass, yet (they have been attending RCIA for 3 weeks, so far.) They thought they were joining something like the community association or the parent school association … anyways, they want their kids to go to our school because we have a really good math program, and at least one parent has to be Catholic in order for the child to attend; that’s why they are coming.
It’s very beautiful, though, to see them being converted - they have discovered after trying it that God answers their prayers, and they are incorporating prayer into their daily lives - they tell me that it makes a huge difference to them - they are happier than they have ever been before.
We aren’t anywhere near the “sinner’s prayer” portion of the journey, yet, for these three. Right now, we are still on the part where they are enjoying that God loves them without reservation or limit. As you can imagine, we are taking it slow.
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JRKH
Guest
That’s really interesting…Not all.
I have three in my group this year who didn’t know about the existence of God before their first RCIA meeting. Two of them have still never been to Mass, yet (they have been attending RCIA for 3 weeks, so far.) They thought they were joining something like the community association or the parent school association … anyways, they want their kids to go to our school because we have a really good math program, and at least one parent has to be Catholic in order for the child to attend; that’s why they are coming.
It’s very beautiful, though, to see them being converted - they have discovered after trying it that God answers their prayers, and they are incorporating prayer into their daily lives - they tell me that it makes a huge difference to them - they are happier than they have ever been before.
We aren’t anywhere near the “sinner’s prayer” portion of the journey, yet, for these three. Right now, we are still on the part where they are enjoying that God loves them without reservation or limit. As you can imagine, we are taking it slow.
Peace
James
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jmcrae
Guest
Is it ever.
Before I met them, I would not have believed that there was anyone in the world who didn’t know about God - I thought He was that famous. But these particular three were simply brought up in homes where God was never spoken of, and somehow just never encountered anyone in the outside world who said anything to them about God or Jesus in any way that they were able to comprehend at the time.
They are so excited though - and it’s amazing what God is doing for them - little miracles every day.
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