John 6 and the Eucharist

[brian614]

What about the Eastern Orthodox? (not Eastern Catholic), Coptic, and other “ancient” churches.

Thanks,
Gwill

I am pretty sure the Coptics are in Union with Rome, as for the Eastern Orthodox they have a valid eucharist (even though Catholics should not receive, unless under special circumstances)

 

[Zekariya]

I am pretty sure the Coptics are in Union with Rome, as for the Eastern Orthodox they have a valid eucharist (even though Catholics should not receive, unless under special circumstances)

The majority of Copts belong to the Coptic Orthodox Church. Some of them belong to the Coptic Catholic Church.

 

[brian614]

The majority of Copts belong to the Coptic Orthodox Church. Some of them belong to the Coptic Catholic Church.

Thanks for the clarification

 

[jmcrae]

Well, by my own measures of judging any doctrine (scripture, tradition and plain reason), I am forced to concede this point.

1. All direct references to the Eucharist in Scripture say it is the body and blood of Christ
   No references say it is not.
2. It seems to be what Christians (including Luther and Calvin (sort of)) have believed
   from the beginning.
3. Given that Miracles (including God becoming man) are possible then it is not unreasonable.

Excellent.

My only real complaint, to be honest, is that it isn’t what I was taught and I don’t understand it.

Unfortunately not everyone is a good teacher, and our teachers can only give us what they were given - if they were taught incorrectly, we cannot expect them to teach us correctly. But we do have a duty to seek out the truth - and maybe even bring it back to them, if it seems like it would be helpful.

Of course, that seems to be a theme lately now that I’m re-examining what I believe and why.

Welcome to your journey of conversion. It will be full of this kind of thing.

Question: What is the Catholic position on the Eucharist in non-catholic Churches?

That in most cases it is not valid, and in all cases it is not licit. Catholics must receive Holy Communion in Catholic churches.

The traditional view from what I’m reading is that it becomes the body and blood when the words of institution are given. However, I read somewhere that, though the baptism of a “schismatic” is valid, the Eucharist is not. So is the Eucharist only really the body and blood if it is blessed by a Catholic priest?

“Consecrated” rather than “blessed” - yes. And the reason is that the Catholic priest receives authority handed down from the Apostles through his Bishop and through the Pope that transmits the ability to do this, through his receiving the Sacrament of Ordination from his Bishop or from the Pope. This ability cannot be transmitted in any other way.

What about the Eastern Orthodox? (not Eastern Catholic), Coptic, and other “ancient” churches.

They, too, have an unbroken line of Apostolic Succession, and their Eucharist is valid. There are other reasons that these churches are not in union with the Bishop of Rome, but they have valid Sacraments, and when they convert to the Catholic faith, we don’t make them repeat their Sacramental initiation.

 

[Gelnhausener]

Hi guys, I have been looking at biblical arguments for the Catholic view of the Eucharist. Besides the “verses of institution” ( Mathew, Mark and Luke and 1 Corinthians 11) every discussion quickly points to John 6.
Gwill.

I will not provide you with any biblical arguments in John 6 because I have tried them with my wife who is an ordained minister in the Pentecostal tradition. However, I find that the historical argument is more direct. Consider that Polycarp was a friend of John whom John later ordained as bishop of Smyrna. In reading Polycarp’s description of the mass he clearly identifies the bread and wine as the true Body and Blood of Christ. Being taught by John that this is the case, what John wrote must also be the case. Please find Polycarp’s description of the mass that he makes before the Roman Emperor. Further if you read the Didache, written about 70 AD ?] you will find a further description of the mass and the belief in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist. There are many such descriptions of the Real Presence in the writings of the early Fathers, some of whom knew the apostles.

 

[josh987654321]

Pope Francis had a great homily on the Holy Eucharist -

Pope Francis - Homily

(Vatican Radio) Lukewarm Christians are those who want to build a church to their own specifications, but it is not the Church of Jesus: this is what Pope Francis said today during a Mass in the chapel of the Domus Sanctae Marthae. Present at the Mass were volunteers from the pediatric dispensary “Santa Marta” in the Vatican, entrusted to the Daughters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul, who for 90 years have supported children and families in need in Rome without distinction of religion or nationality.

The first Christian community, after the persecution, lives a moment of peace, it is united, it walks and grows “in the fear of the Lord and with the comfort of the Holy Spirit”: This was the Pope’s comment following the reading from the Acts of the Apostles. It is this very air in which the Church lives and breathes, called to walk in the presence of God in an irreproachable manner:

"It 'is a style of the Church. To walk in the fear of the Lord is a 'sense of adoration, the presence of God, no? The Church walks and so when we are in the presence of God we do not do bad things or make bad decisions. We are in God’s sight with joy and happiness: this is the security of the Holy Spirit, that is the gift that the Lord has given us - this comfort - that keeps us going. "

John 6:41-71

Rejected by His Own

41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’[e] Therefore everyone who has heard and learned[f] from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me[g] has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”

53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed,[h] and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Turn Away

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

In the Gospel from the liturgy of the day many disciples truly believe the language of Jesus, they whisper, are shocked and eventually leave the Master:

"These people have turned away, they are gone, they say, ‘this man is a bit’ strange, he says things that are hard…It 's too big a risk to go down this road. We have common sense, eh? Let’s go ‘back a little and not so close to Him’. These people, perhaps, had a certain admiration for Jesus, but little ‘from afar: not to meddle too much with this man, because he says things that are a bit’ strange … ".

These Christians - the Pope said - " are not united in the Church, they do not walk in God’s presence, they don’t have the security of the Holy Spirit, they do not make up the Church":

Please continue to next post -

 

[josh987654321]

Continued from above post -

"They are Christians of good sense only: they keep their distance. Christians - so to speak they are - ‘satellites’, that have a small church, in size: to quote the words of Jesus in Revelation, ‘lukewarm Christians’. The indifference that is in the Church … They walk only in the presence of common sense, common sense … that worldly prudence: This is a temptation just worldly prudence. "

Pope Francis reflected on so many Christians “that now bear witness to the name of Jesus, even unto martyrdom.” These - he says - are not ‘Christian satellites’, because “they go with Jesus on the path of Jesus”:

"These people know exactly what Peter says to the Lord. They understand exactly what Peter says the Lord, when the Lord asks the question: 'Do you also want to go, be’ Christian satellites ‘?’. Simon Peter answers him: 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life '. So from a large group there becomes a group a little 'smaller, but those who know perfectly well that they cannot go somewhere else, because only He, the Lord, has the words of eternal life. "

The Pope finally recites this prayer:

"Let us pray for the Church, will continue to grow, unite, to walk in the fear of God and with the security of the Holy Spirit. May the Lord deliver us from the temptation of that ‘common sense’, and in inverted commas, “the temptation to whisper against Jesus, because it is too demanding, and the temptation from scandal. So be it. "

Text from page en.radiovaticana.va/articolo.asp?c=684817
of the Vatican Radio website

Also Gwillym, I strongly recommend listening to Scott Hahn’s conversion story on yourtube here - youtube.com/watch?v=FrQN8LHYg5g

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Gwillym]

In reading Polycarp’s description of the mass he clearly identifies the bread and wine as the true Body and Blood of Christ.

What document is that in? I’ve read Polycarp’s Cover letter to Ignatius of Antioch’s work,but I was unaware of another work by Polycarp.

 

[Gwillym]

Also Gwillym, I strongly recommend listening to Scott Hahn’s conversion story on yourtube here - youtube.com/watch?v=FrQN8LHYg5g

Wow! If Scott Hahn’s testimony is not exaggerated it is very significant! He is essentially claiming to have rediscovered Catholicism via the scripture with some help from the fathers without really knowing what he was doing! That would raise a few eyebrows in some of the circles I run in. Of course none of them would believe it was true. I’m finding that there is a lot of anti-Catholicism in evangelical protestantism that I had never noticed until now. Eh, that’s a post for another forum though.

Thanks for the link!

 

[jmcrae]

Wow! If Scott Hahn’s testimony is not exaggerated it is very significant! He is essentially claiming to have rediscovered Catholicism via the scripture with some help from the fathers without really knowing what he was doing! That would raise a few eyebrows in some of the circles I run in. Of course none of them would believe it was true. I’m finding that there is a lot of anti-Catholicism in evangelical protestantism that I had never noticed until now. Eh, that’s a post for another forum though.

Thanks for the link!

It makes sense - in my case, it was the rediscovery of the Liturgy that eventually led to my conversion.

 

[josh987654321]

Wow! If Scott Hahn’s testimony is not exaggerated it is very significant! He is essentially claiming to have rediscovered Catholicism via the scripture with some help from the fathers without really knowing what he was doing! That would raise a few eyebrows in some of the circles I run in. Of course none of them would believe it was true. I’m finding that there is a lot of anti-Catholicism in evangelical protestantism that I had never noticed until now. Eh, that’s a post for another forum though.

Thanks for the link!

My pleasure

Scott Hahn may have converted a few away from Catholicism while he was an Evangelical Protestant, but he has converted alot more to Catholicism after becomming a Roman Catholic. Id recommend listening to him for any protestant.

My dad converted to Roman Catholicism when I was very young with Scott Hahn and the absolute truth of the Holy Eucharist and even now a friend of mine is going through RCIA to become a Roman Catholic due to Scott Hahn and the absolute truth in the Holy Eucharist.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh