John 6

[erikd]

Continued from previous post.

The importance of the Eucharist is also represented by Paul in his letter to the Corinthians:

23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread;
24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”
26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.
27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.

1 Corinthians 11: 23-29

Paul admonishes the congregation at Corinth for the same heresy which I am here speaking against. In verse 29 Paul calls this the “Lord’s body” not making any references to symbolism. In verses 27 and 28 Paul warns of receiving this Sacrament in an unworthy manner. One would think that if this was symbolic only, Paul would not warn the congregation of drinking judgment on themselves. Paul also speaks to the congregation in the following verse:

16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

1 Corinthians 10: 16

I should admit that there are a couple of verses in the Gospel where Jesus speaks of food in a symbolic manner. Let’s examine those verses.

31 In the meantime His disciples urged Him, saying, “Rabbi, eat.”
32 But He said to them, “I have food to eat of which you do not know.”
33 Therefore the disciples said to one another, “Has anyone brought Him anything to eat?”
34 Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.
John 4: 31-34

Jesus clearly explains the meaning of food as symbolism.

5 Now when His disciples had come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread.
6 Then Jesus said to them, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.”
7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “It is because we have taken no bread.”
8 But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, "O you of little faith, why do you reason among yourselves because you have brought no bread?
9 "Do you not yet understand, or remember the five loaves of the five thousand and how many baskets you took up?
10 "Nor the seven loaves of the four thousand and how many large baskets you took up?
11 “How is it you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread?-but to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”
12 Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Matthew 16: 5-12

Jesus once again explains the meaning behind the symbolism. These two stories indicate a different mannerism and a different explanation than shown in John 6 where Jesus does not indicate anything as symbolic.
John 6 was only, however, the promise of the Eucharist. The actual institution of the Eucharist happened during the Last Supper.

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”
27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.
28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Matthew 26: 26-28

Here, just as in John 6, Jesus equates the blood, to be drank, with the blood which is “shed for many for the remission of sins.” Also, Jesus plainly says “this is My body.” There is no distinction of any other reality other than the one being presented. The blood being shed is real and therefore the blood being drank is real. The body is real as there is nothing to indicate otherwise.

22 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”
23 Then He took the cup, and when He had given thanks He gave it to them, and they all drank from it.
24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Mark 14: 22-24

Mark’s Gospel is harmonious with Matthew’s as there is no distinction between the blood being drank and the blood being shed. Also, just as in Matthew’s Gospel, Jesus says “this is My body.” There is nothing within the language to indicate otherwise.

19 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

Luke 22: 19-20
A similar explanation here exists as the blood to be drank is the blood to be shed: the real blood. Also, Jesus again states “this is My body.” Nothing here indicates of any other reality other than the one being plainly presented.

 

[erikd]

In the last two posts I analyzed the Scripture for the truth and found it in the words of our Lord. But this can be explained in a far more simple manner. Ask yourself one question: If you pray to Jesus, is He listening? If He’s listening, is He really present with you? If He is only symbolically or metaphorically present, then is He only symbolically or metaphorically listening also? Does that mean that the answer will be symbolic or metaphorical? One would think that the answer to these questions could be life changing.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Jolly Joe
JJ59,

John chapter 6 is clearly using figurative language. It’s not even directly speaking of the Lord’s Supper which was instituted much later. And note they did not at that point stop and eat and drink but rather Peter confessed where are we to go, you have the words of eternal life. It was difficult to understand for the Jews because they wanted to interprete them literally. It certainly wasn’t teaching them any sort of real presence because there was no bread and wine involved.

Using it as the primary text is a mistake in technique of using the obscure to interprete the clear. This is my body and this is my blood are quite clear. In Corinthians two rhetorical questions are used is this not the communion of the body of Christ, is this not the communion of the blood of Christ? In both questions it assumes a yes answer.

Running to John 6 confuses the issue. When shown that, many Protestants think well that’s clearly figurative; therefore, every time we read of Christ’s body and blood it too must be figurative.

Does the Catholic Church teach that one must take Communion in order to be saved? If not, then it too takes it as figurative language doesn’t it? The insistance on it being the passage to teach the real presence is a bit strange since the Catholic Church does really take the rest of the teaching there as literal, though it’s been common to do so in the past.

**Friends,

I’m not sure if your problem is in reading or comprehension. Clearly it’s one or the other. No reasonably intelligent person can read John six, and not understand what is being clearly stated. Perhaps some visual evidence might be helpful. Might I suggest that you Google “Eucharisitic Miracles.”

In addition to John six, read: Mt. 26: 26-18, Mk. 14: 22-24, Lk. 22:19-24. and 1 Cor. 11:23-28. I doubt that you will bother because its just more evidence of the truth which interferes with your ajenda.

If you’d like a serious deabate on the issue, I would be happy to provide extensive evidence including the “Why” its true.

As to Protestant beliefs. I would point out [sadly] that in a period of about 400 years there are Thirty to fourty THOUSAND different secs, each teaching what they [like you] choose to believe. As there can only be One Single Truth on any specific issue, this proliferation of opinions can be nothing but that: persoanl opinion.

The TRUTH has been cherished, guarded and taught by the only Church founded by Christ. And Only the CC can correctly [as evidenced by an unbroken 2,000 years of service in the vineyard of the Lord.] as promised by Christ Himself.

Love and prayers friends,
Pat**

 

[TLM08]

For a Jew to eat someone’s flesh and blood in the spiritual sense would be to bring damnation upon yourself. I do not think Jesus would be asking the disciples to damn Him.

Not always my friend!

“In the mean time the disciples prayed him, saying: Rabbi, eat. But he said to them: I have meat to eat, which you know not. The disciples therefore said one to another: Hath any man brought him to eat? Jesus saith to them: My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, that I may perfect his work.” John 4:32-34

“For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.” John 6: 56-57

My meat is to do the will of him that sent me? My flesh is meat? This is all obviously figurative language. The Gospel of John is loaded with it. What Jesus is telling this hungry crowd is to stop focusing on their stomach’s and start doing the will of God. Remember, these people witnessed Jesus feed the five-thousand the previous day and were seeking him for more free food, not because he was the Son of God.

“Amen, amen I say to you, you seek me, not because you have seen miracles, but because you did eat of the loaves, and were filled.” John 6:26

He is also saying that it is the will of God that he give his flesh on the cross. John 6 has absolutely nothing to do with the Last Supper.

 

[dpgreen]

Not always my friend!

"In the mean time the disciples prayed him, saying: Rabbi, eat. But he said to them: I have meat to eat, which you know not. The disciples therefore said one to another: Hath any man brought him to eat? Jesus saith to them: My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, that I may perfect his work." John 4:32-34

"For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him." John 6: 56-57

My meat is to do the will of him that sent me? My flesh is meat? This is all obviously figurative language. The Gospel of John is loaded with it. What Jesus is telling this hungry crowd is to stop focusing on their stomach’s and start doing the will of God. Remember, these people witnessed Jesus feed the five-thousand the previous day and were seeking him for more free food, not because he was the Son of God.

“Amen, amen I say to you, you seek me, not because you have seen miracles, but because you did eat of the loaves, and were filled.” John 6:26

He is also saying that it is the will of God that he give his flesh on the cross. John 6 has absolutely nothing to do with the Last Supper.

From one bible-believing Christian to another,

John 4:32-34 answers nothing to the fact that the Jews understood to eat someone’s flesh and drink someone’s blood was to bring damnation to that person. In John 4 Jesus is not, at that point, telling anyone that we have to eat His flesh and drink His blood. Read the text in context. It is only in John 6 that Jesus tells us that we MUST eat His flesh and drink His blood to have life in us, which is exactly to do the will of our father. How can eating symbols bring about death to those who receive unworthily as Paul tells us in Corinthians?

It is interesting that right before the discourse on the Eucharist, Jesus did indeed FEED the hungry crowd. A miracle that all witnessed. Yet they still are HUNGRY for more. Jesus sets the Eucharistic discourse up so perfectly. Performs a miracle with bread; they still want more, so He tells them that He will give us His flesh and blood so that He can actually abide in us. Notice in John 6:26 that they still seek, although their stomachs were full.

John wrote his gospel precisely because the gnostics were practicing a false Eucharist where they believed that the bread and wine were only symbols. John emphasizes the word flesh so much just to get up the noses of the gnostics who didn’t believe in flesh.

Remember the apostles recognised Him in the breaking of bread, even though they walked, prayed, ate and slept with Him for three years. It was at the Eucharist, this precious gift of Christ Himself for all eternity, that they knew Him.

If Jesus tells us that He will be with us to the end of time, is He here symbolically, metaphorically or really present? Jesus said HE will be here - NOT God the Father, or the Holy Spirit, but JESUS will be with us.

Just a note of interest, the verse where the disciples left Jesus in John 6 is verse 66. 666. (I’m just having fun, no harm intended)

 

[PJM]

[QUOT]E=TLM08 -Not always my friend!

“In the mean time the disciples prayed him, saying: Rabbi, eat. But he said to them: I have meat to eat, which you know not. The disciples therefore said one to another: Hath any man brought him to eat? Jesus saith to them: My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, that I may perfect his work.” John 4:32-34

“For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.” John 6: 56-57

My meat is to do the will of him that sent me? My flesh is meat? This is all obviously figurative language. The Gospel of John is loaded with it. What Jesus is telling this hungry crowd is to stop focusing on their stomach’s and start doing the will of God. Remember, these people witnessed Jesus feed the five-thousand the previous day and were seeking him for more free food, not because he was the Son of God.

“Amen, amen I say to you, you seek me, not because you have seen miracles, but because you did eat of the loaves, and were filled.” John 6:26

He is also saying that it is the will of God that he give his flesh on the cross. John 6 has absolutely nothing to do with the Last Supper.

---

At last a thoughful responce. Your not right of course. The early Fathers and many deciples actually gave their lifes in support of this Dogma, which found itmediate and widespread acceptance, which is historically proveable. And this Dogma has been held for 2,000 years! Through all kinds of persecuation and thousands of brutal deaths in defence of it.***

***John 6: "3 Jesus answered them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.It is written in the prophets, *‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. Not that any one has seen the Father except him who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. [Exo 16:7-10] 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.” 52 [ONE SHOULD ASK WHY GOD WOULD DO THIS NOT “IF” GOD CAN; OF COURSE GOD “CAN”] The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. **

Then go on and read v 60-66. “many left Him” because they would not belief. Jesus did not call them back, instead He turns to His Apostles and ask: “Do you wish to leave Me too”? Peter replies. Lord to whom would we go; YOU have the words of Eternal life!

Read also Mt. 26:26-28, Mk. 14:19-22, Lk. 22:19-21, 1 Cor. 11: 23-26 and then take special note of verses 27-28. Ask your self if this is not understood to be REAL and true, how can Paul say you bring condemnation upon yourself for eating “unworthly” [in mortal sin]? He can’t say this about just having supper!

Love and prayers,

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Roy5
Sorry. Perhaps it’s my Protestant bias. Perhaps it’s my sense of propriety. Perhaps it’s my tendency to view Jesus as speaking in metaphors like “I am the door.” Perhaps it’s because the whole concept of eating flesh and blood seems pagan, gross, and contradictory to basic ethics. But the whole notion that in communion we are eating the body and blood of Christ simply is unbelievable.

***The factual evidence for this Dogma is both Biblically and historically overwhelming.

Please note that all 4 Gospel writers speak if it as does St. Paul. This is a rarely found in the Bible. READ: Mt. 26:26-28, Mk.14:22-24, Lk. 22:19-21 John all of Chapter 6***

, but especially the quotes I shall pull and print for you. Please notice the absolute lack of metaphorical or parable language. Indeed we see very specific language, so clear that one must be willing to deny the truth of the message, or be considered dishonest and insincere. Paul in 1 Cor. 11:23-26. Also note Paul

Let’s began with Paul 1 Cor. 11:27 27 "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner [meaning either in serious sin or unbelieving] will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself /I] This is clearly not a metaphor ! And Paul can’t be talking about the staples of bread and wine. How can eating JUST FOOD "profane the Body and Blood of Christ?"

The real question is not “Can God do this? Of course God can. God can do anything GOOD. The better question is why would God want to?

Jn. Chapter 6 1: 4 Now the Passover, the feast of the Jews, was at hand. Lifting up his eyes, then, and seeing that a multitude was coming to him, Jesus said to Philip, “How are we to buy bread, so that these people may eat?” … One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, said to him, “There is a lad here who has five barley loaves and two fish; but what are they among so many?” Jesus said, “Make the people sit down.” …so the men sat down, in number about five thousand. Jesus then took the loaves, and when he had given thanks, he distributed them to those who were seated; so also the fish, as much as they wanted. And when they had eaten their fill, he told his disciples, “Gather up the fragments left over, that nothing may be lost.” So they gathered them up and filled twelve baskets with fragments from the five barley loaves, left by those who had eaten” [Note fish, even today a sign of Jesus, Bread like OT Manna, and 12 = the 12 tribes which means us today!]

1. When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you come here?” Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves .Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of man will give to you

31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’" Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world.” 35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst.

41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, “I am the bread, which came down from heaven.” They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread, which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."

52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. .

60Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?”… 63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him. And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

66After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also wish to go away?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

Note: This is in the setting of the Passover meal,[See Exo.12:21-27]. God specified 1. A male lamb 2. Unblemished 3. A bread offering 4. A wine offering. [Lev. 23: 5-13, John 1:29 & 36, 1 Pet.1:19.]

In John 1 and 1 Peter Jesus is identified specifically as this lamb. NOTE: In order to effect a sacrifice there MUST BE a shedding of Blood![This is fulfilled by Jesus on the Cross.]