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serendipity
Guest
Is the Ascent of Mount Carmel necessary as a precursor to Dark Night? Or will Dark Night be comprehendable without it?
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Joysong
Guest
Dear Serendipity,
If I had a choice of purchasing only one of these two books, I would definitely obtain the Ascent. The Dark Night is for persons far advanced spiritually and who have already received an initial purification of the sensual part of their being. After this, there may be several years before the purification of one’s spirit begins, so if you are not there yet, it would not be advantageous to you to read Dark Night, other than to realize this is a possibility down the road.
There are a few chapters in the beginning that describe the capital sins which proficients carry in the root of their spirit. These are imperfections which need to be brought into the intense passive purification by God. It is interesting to read the descriptions and understand that we all struggle with these tendencies
If you want to get a preview, you can read either book on line through a search at Google. St. John is not for the half-hearted, I warn you.
If I had a choice of purchasing only one of these two books, I would definitely obtain the Ascent. The Dark Night is for persons far advanced spiritually and who have already received an initial purification of the sensual part of their being. After this, there may be several years before the purification of one’s spirit begins, so if you are not there yet, it would not be advantageous to you to read Dark Night, other than to realize this is a possibility down the road.
There are a few chapters in the beginning that describe the capital sins which proficients carry in the root of their spirit. These are imperfections which need to be brought into the intense passive purification by God. It is interesting to read the descriptions and understand that we all struggle with these tendencies
If you want to get a preview, you can read either book on line through a search at Google. St. John is not for the half-hearted, I warn you.
M
mtr01
Guest
You make very valid points above. One thing that I have noticed on these forums quite a bit is that people seem to truly misunderstand what a Dark Night is. Perhaps they have read St. John’s book, or have just heard about it, but the general tendency is to equate any dryness in prayer, or simply feeling that God is not with you, that it is a dark night.
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serendipity
Guest
hee! hee! Great summary!
That’s why I have been saving it for Lent! I have been reading the works of many other mystics meanwhile, trying to build up to St. John. I have always heard of Dark Night but only recently heard of Ascent.
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serendipity
Guest
I’ve heard this repeatedly as well, which is part of my rationale for wanting to explore St. John’s work. But then I wonder too how self-evident is the teaching. I know it is very dense.
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ATeNumquam
Guest
St John of the Cross, in the Ascent of Mt Carmel, and the Dark Night of the Soul, is actually covering the same period of development in the spiritual life, but the Ascent is about the “active” purification (what WE have to do to prepare ourselves, as far as we can, for contemplative prayer) and the Dark Night of the Soul, also dealing with beginners (at the start of the book) is about “passive” purification (what God does to the well-disposed, prayerful person, to bring them to the higher states of prayer). These 2 books are like 2 sides of the same coin, and need to be read in this light.
At least, that is what I’ve always understood from reading the commentators on St John, and having spent 11 years as a Carmelite nun …
And I absolutely endorse the remarks about using the term “Dark night” loosely. In St. John’s terms, it does not mean any old dryness. In the book “The Dark Night of the Soul” in the early chapters, he gives very specific “signs” to help one discern the onset of the real “dark nights”. There are 2 - one fairly common to beginners, and one (worse!!) that few attain.
At least, that is what I’ve always understood from reading the commentators on St John, and having spent 11 years as a Carmelite nun …
And I absolutely endorse the remarks about using the term “Dark night” loosely. In St. John’s terms, it does not mean any old dryness. In the book “The Dark Night of the Soul” in the early chapters, he gives very specific “signs” to help one discern the onset of the real “dark nights”. There are 2 - one fairly common to beginners, and one (worse!!) that few attain.
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WanderAimlessly
Guest
I have tried to read both the Ascent of Mt Carmel and Dark Night of the Soul (I have The Collected Works of St John of the Cross trandlated by Kieran Kavanaugh) a couple time and have not gotten too far.
From what I have heard and read, St. John of the Cross is difficult for those who are not advance in their spritual development. I have found that Immitation of Christ by Thomas a’Kempis and Show Us Your Mercy and Love by Cardinal Justin Rigali excelent for meditiation.
Another note. Other than in the Collected Works of St. John of the Cross. I do not think there is a complete translation of Ascent of Mt Carmel being published right now. In fact the only one that I saw out on Amazon is missing a few chapters I know, I own a copy ).
PF
From what I have heard and read, St. John of the Cross is difficult for those who are not advance in their spritual development. I have found that Immitation of Christ by Thomas a’Kempis and Show Us Your Mercy and Love by Cardinal Justin Rigali excelent for meditiation.
Another note. Other than in the Collected Works of St. John of the Cross. I do not think there is a complete translation of Ascent of Mt Carmel being published right now. In fact the only one that I saw out on Amazon is missing a few chapters I know, I own a copy ).
PF
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serendipity
Guest
You seem to have an advantageous perspective from which to make a recommendation! Thank you for sharing your wisdom.
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puzzleannie
Guest
Kavanaugh’s work is newly translated from the most authoritative Spanish versions, and preserves John’s “traditional and biblical way of speaking about God and Christ, which often have profound theological import” bearing in mind John used the Latin Vulgate. He also has a new biography, adds Sayings of LIght and Love, missing from earlier English translations, and some additional letters. Earlier English language versions tended to recast the poetry in Victorian forms and glosses. Those earlier translations are still available, if not in print, but this is the best English language version and is published by ICS, Institute for Carmelite Studies. copyrt 1991 Washington Province of the Discalced Carmelite Friars Inc., ICS Publications: Washington DC
The poetry should be read first as lyric poetry (aloud, like all poetry) before it is approached as spiritual direction. It will be more comprehensible as spiritual direction the closer the soul comes to the state described in the Ascent and the poem “the Dark Night”, which is that of having undergone initial conversion, and embarked on the path leading ultimately toward union with God.
Dark Night, the poem, is one component of the Ascent. the sketch of Mt Carmel is the first compenent, and the treatise on the sketch and the poem is the third and largest component.
“This treatise explains how to reach divine union quickly. It presents instruction and doctirne valuable for beginners and proficients alike that they may learn how to unburden themselves of all earthly things, avoid spiritual obstacles, and live in that complete nakedness and freedom of spirit necessary for divine union. It as composed by Fray John of the Cross, Discalced Carmelite.” (Kavanaugh, p.113 intro to The Ascent of Mount Carmel.)
“The work called The Dark Night has come down to us from John of the Cross in manuscripts separate from the Ascent of Mount Carmel. It fulfills John’s promise in the Ascent to deal with the passive nights, the passive purifications of senses and the spirit, asserting that active purification alone is insufficient. this work is the necessary complement to the Ascent.” Kavanaugh p. 353.
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serendipity
Guest
Hello Annie,
Of course I was hoping to hear your opinion (though I value every one’s (name removed by moderator)ut and thank you all for your insight), because I know that this wiritng is very close to your heart.
I do have Kavanaugh’s Collected works. He introduced me to Teresa of Avila so eloquently (love the study guide to Way of Perfection; wish he did that for all works), that I prefer to stick to his versions of anything.I greatly appreciate the brief background he provides of the people and the times with which he prefaces his work. Also seems to add a certain air of authenticity coming form the Insitute of Carmelite Studies.
I did start the Ascent. I think reasons of pride were motivating me to skip it and start with Dark Night. I am dying to explore Dark Night because I have heard so much about it, and wanted to immerse myself as soon as possible. Perhaps it is because Ascent is not finished and has not been published as widely.
Reading it though, I don’t feel it is as applicable to my life as works by Teresa of Avila or Catherine of Siena, whihc seems to offer more gudiance about interacting with other while pursuign spiritual life. John’s purgations and approach to cultivating a spiritual life seem so comprehensive, that I don’t understand how it is possible for people to have such a deep spiritual life unless they are living a comteplative life void of other repsonsibilties. I couldn’t help but notice that the books was written for contemplative communities. Forgive me for sounding like a moron, on this topic. I mean in no way to demean his writing.
Of course I was hoping to hear your opinion (though I value every one’s (name removed by moderator)ut and thank you all for your insight), because I know that this wiritng is very close to your heart.
I do have Kavanaugh’s Collected works. He introduced me to Teresa of Avila so eloquently (love the study guide to Way of Perfection; wish he did that for all works), that I prefer to stick to his versions of anything.I greatly appreciate the brief background he provides of the people and the times with which he prefaces his work. Also seems to add a certain air of authenticity coming form the Insitute of Carmelite Studies.
I did start the Ascent. I think reasons of pride were motivating me to skip it and start with Dark Night. I am dying to explore Dark Night because I have heard so much about it, and wanted to immerse myself as soon as possible. Perhaps it is because Ascent is not finished and has not been published as widely.
Reading it though, I don’t feel it is as applicable to my life as works by Teresa of Avila or Catherine of Siena, whihc seems to offer more gudiance about interacting with other while pursuign spiritual life. John’s purgations and approach to cultivating a spiritual life seem so comprehensive, that I don’t understand how it is possible for people to have such a deep spiritual life unless they are living a comteplative life void of other repsonsibilties. I couldn’t help but notice that the books was written for contemplative communities. Forgive me for sounding like a moron, on this topic. I mean in no way to demean his writing.
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puzzleannie
Guest
I agree, Teresa seems to speak to me exactly as my life is at this time, she is so understandable, you can see yourself making progress the way she describes.
I love John’s poetry mainly for the poetry itself, which is sublime, maybe the best poetry I have ever read in any language (and I read a lot of poetry) but way, way over my head. Could not make head nor tail of the Ascent. Started Dark Night several years ago but still have not progressed (in that very thin little book) beyond the section about faults of beginners, because that is still where I am. When my director tells me to move forward, then I will.
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mtr01
Guest
From what I understand St. John is still considered one of the greatest, if not the greatest Spanish-language poet to ever set pen to paper.
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puzzleannie
Guest
I tell everybody I took Spanish because of my job, but the real reason is so I can try to read John of the Cross in the original Spanish. I have an older translation with the 16th c Spanish and the English side by side, which surprisingly is close to the version in Kavannaugh’s book, (more than Shakespeare corresponds to a modern playwright) but the variation in the English translations seems to distort the meaning in some cases.
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