John Piper and Christian Hedonism

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Hey everyone! I’m a long time “listener”, but a first time “poster” here on the Catholic Answer forums. I have a question that I can’t seem to find the answer to. I would like to know the Catholic position on John Piper’s theology of “Christian Hedonism.” I’m not even sure if this is the right forum for this issue, but I thought I would give it a try!

Here’s a little backstory on myself. I am a convert to the faith. My whole family, as well as my husband’s family, are still Protestant. My sister, is an extremely evangelical protestant and she has recently become infatuated with John Piper and his teachings. I’m worried about her beliefs and I would like to have a Catholic perspective on all of this.

In a nutshell, Christian hedonism requires that a Christian pursue one’s pleasure in God as his highest motive for all things one does on earth. Piper defines Christian hedonism as follows: God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him. Additionally, Piper has been quoted as saying, “By Christian hedonism … I mean that pursuing the highest good will always result in our happiness. But all Christians believe this. Christian hedonism says more, namely, that we should pursue happiness with all our might. The desire to be happy is a proper motive for every good deed, and if you abandon pursuit of your own joy you cannot please God.”

John Piper’s website: desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/2006/1797_We_Want_You_to_Be_a_Christian_Hedonist/

To me, it seems as though “Christian Hedonists” are putting love of self over love of God. (This is obvious). But I was wondering if you guys had any other thoughts on this issue. I searched the forums for any discussion on the issue, but there was no real debate about it.

I would very much appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut! TIA! :confused::confused:
 
Christian hedonism is not about pleasing the self.

Christian hedonism is about experiencing the infinite pleasure of loving God.
 
To seek happiness is normal and natural-especially in this world where happiness is elusive-where we’re not already existing in a state of paradise. And the Catholic faith teaches that happiness is Gods aim for man-but that man cannot find that happiness outside of God. So, if we’re seeking happiness in creation rather than in the Creator, we’re doomed to fail. I don’t know what side of the line Christian Hedonism falls on.
 
Hedonism defines happiness as a state. That is incorrect… happiness is an activity of the soul in accord with the highest and most complete virtue (charity).

Now virtue is a state, inasmuch as it is a firm and deliberate habit of choosing well in a particular sphere of activity.
 
fhansen said:
To seek happiness is normal and natural-especially in this world where happiness is elusive-where we’re not already existing in a state of paradise. And the Catholic faith teaches that happiness is Gods aim for man-but that man cannot find that happiness outside of God. So, if we’re seeking happiness in creation rather than in the Creator, we’re doomed to fail. I don’t know what side of the line Christian Hedonism falls on.
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While I agree with the statement above, it seems as though CH takes it a step further. Piper says, “By Christian hedonism … I mean that pursuing the highest good will always result in our happiness. But all Christians believe this. Christian hedonism says more, namely, that we should pursue happiness with all our might. The desire to be happy is a proper motive for every good deed, and if you abandon pursuit of your own joy you cannot please God."

I have found a website which critique’s Piper’s CH, but it’s from a Protestant perspective. In sum, he argues that the greatest commandment is to love and serve God, while Piper’s belief is that pursuing happiness in God is the greatest commandment (and in pursuing happiness, you are thereby glorifying God). He argues that ultimately, CH pursues love of joy over love of God. You can find the website here: thefaithfulword.org/chfaqs.html#Q2

In my opinion, it seems as though CH places self above God. But if you say this to a Piper follower, they would reply, “No, it does not.” There is something fishy with this guy and his theology, I just can’t put my finger on it. And I’m not smart enough to figure it out by myself.
 
SedesDomi said:
Christian hedonism is not about pleasing the self.

Christian hedonism is about experiencing the infinite pleasure of loving God.
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A Piper devotee! Yay! So it’s about the experience? Could the word experience be replaced with the word “feeling?”
 
PickleJuice said:
Hey everyone! I’m a long time “listener”, but a first time “poster” here on the Catholic Answer forums. I have a question that I can’t seem to find the answer to. I would like to know the Catholic position on John Piper’s theology of “Christian Hedonism.” I’m not even sure if this is the right forum for this issue, but I thought I would give it a try!

Here’s a little backstory on myself. I am a convert to the faith. My whole family, as well as my husband’s family, are still Protestant. My sister, is an extremely evangelical protestant and she has recently become infatuated with John Piper and his teachings. I’m worried about her beliefs and I would like to have a Catholic perspective on all of this.

In a nutshell, Christian hedonism requires that a Christian pursue one’s pleasure in God as his highest motive for all things one does on earth. Piper defines Christian hedonism as follows: God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him. Additionally, Piper has been quoted as saying, “By Christian hedonism … I mean that pursuing the highest good will always result in our happiness. But all Christians believe this. Christian hedonism says more, namely, that we should pursue happiness with all our might. The desire to be happy is a proper motive for every good deed, and if you abandon pursuit of your own joy you cannot please God.”

John Piper’s website: desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/2006/1797_We_Want_You_to_Be_a_Christian_Hedonist/

To me, it seems as though “Christian Hedonists” are putting love of self over love of God. (This is obvious). But I was wondering if you guys had any other thoughts on this issue. I searched the forums for any discussion on the issue, but there was no real debate about it.

I would very much appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut! TIA! :confused::confused:
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Nice that you bring this up, because my wife and i are just for about 3 months new converts to the Catholic Church and before that i was also a great John Piper fan and a 5 piont calvinist.
 
Clairvaux said:
Nice that you bring this up, because my wife and i are just for about 3 months new converts to the Catholic Church and before that i was also a great John Piper fan and a 5 piont calvinist.
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Awesome! Welcome home, brother! I also come from a Calvinist background, I was born and raised Southern Baptist.

I will say that coming from this type of background gives us a unique perspective on religion. When I bring these types of issues up to cradle Catholics, sometimes they don’t seem to “get it.” The Calvinist/Baptist worldview is so foriegn/illogical to them, they just don’t understand. So, it makes communication difficult.
 
PickleJuice said:
While I agree with the statement above, it seems as though CH takes it a step further. Piper says, “By Christian hedonism … I mean that pursuing the highest good will always result in our happiness. But all Christians believe this. Christian hedonism says more, namely, that we should pursue happiness with all our might. The desire to be happy is a proper motive for every good deed, and if you abandon pursuit of your own joy you cannot please God."

I have found a website which critique’s Piper’s CH, but it’s from a Protestant perspective. In sum, he argues that the greatest commandment is to love and serve God, while Piper’s belief is that pursuing happiness in God is the greatest commandment (and in pursuing happiness, you are thereby glorifying God). He argues that ultimately, CH pursues love of joy over love of God. You can find the website here: thefaithfulword.org/chfaqs.html#Q2

In my opinion, it seems as though CH places self above God. But if you say this to a Piper follower, they would reply, “No, it does not.” There is something fishy with this guy and his theology, I just can’t put my finger on it. And I’m not smart enough to figure it out by myself.
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There’s at least a partial truth in it. This world is an exile from God. Our lack of peace, joy, happiness-the impossibility of finding lasting satisfaction in anything this world offers- is in large part what drives us to seek Him-to hone in on the One Thing that can bring everlasting bliss. And sometimes I think Catholics don’t know the teachings on the truth about “beatitude”, which essentially means happiness. But I don’t know what CH means. If he’s saying that the pursuit of happiness wherever it leads is equivalent to seeking God, I disagree, although they’re indirectly related. If He means that seeking God and coming to love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength will bring happiness, this is true.
 
PickleJuice said:
A Piper devotee! Yay! So it’s about the experience? Could the word experience be replaced with the word “feeling?”
Click to expand...
There are different levels of experience, different levels of feeling. Enter into the deepest experience, the deepest feeling, not the superficial, the surface, the non-depth.
 
We can only be happy in God. I struggle with reaching that every day. Hopefully I will get tothe point where I can be like that ALL the time.

We don’t have a right to be happy outside of God. And is Piper is saying that he is wrong.
 
I agree. Especially for Catholics who are not steadfast in their faith and may be influenced by his ideals, I would say avoid this guy and his website “Desiring God” at all costs.
 
I think I can shed some light on Piper and Christian Hedonism. I work in an interdenominational (and largely Protestant) ministry, and Piper is overwhelmingly popular. First, some positives:

Piper’s Christian Hedonism affirms the great joy of following God and growing in His image, rejecting the worldly idea that greater joy is found in sin or ungodliness than in pursuit of the beatific vision. As CCC 27 states, “The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for.” Piper would strongly affirm this. The overriding message of his work is that true happiness is found only in God, and that God is glorified when we pursue this happiness through following Him deeper in faith, hope, and charity." They teach (correctly) against a Puritan distrust in human happiness, knowing that following God can never be divorced from true joy. Because of this, Piper and his associates have produced a great deal of solid work on holy living and devotion to God.

Unfortunately, Piper makes this case from a very Protestant (and specifically Calvinist) framework that often emphasizes novelty and a cult of personality. This, along with Piper’s Calvinist theology, has the potential to lead others astray.

Taken at face value, Christian Hedonism can easily make following God an instrumental, rather than intrinsic, good. If it is interpreted to mean that following God is worthwhile solely or predominantly because of the joy that it brings to us, then the idea is wrong and dangerous. God, as creator and ultimate good, would be worthy of worship and devotion even if doing so brought us no joy whatsoever. I believe Piper would say this interpretation is the farthest thing from his intention, but the danger remains. Furthermore, there is a tendency to represent Christian Hedonism as a novel idea and sort of “clique” within specific circles of Protestantism, rather than within the full view of earthly and heavenly beatitude within the fullness of Christian tradition. This can lead to a cult of personality around its teachers and novel interpretations that reject the value of historic Christian thought.

As for Piper’s theology, I would say it’s greatly flawed, falls short of the fullness of truth found within the Catholic Church, and through active antagonism towards Catholicism, leads many away from the truth. He is a strongly Calvinist Baptist, and therefore contradicts the Church on a wide range of issues, and believes that Catholics fundamentally distort the Gospel. Just about every one of Piper and his associates’ writings on Catholicism misrepresent the Church, either out of ignorance or (I pray not) deception. Because Piper is highly charismatic, many Christians come for his (often very good) work on holy living, and subconsciously accept his assertions on all manner of theology. For this reason, I would advise a Catholic to consume his work with a discerning eye and a grain of salt, or even avoid it altogether. For conversation with our Protestant brothers and sisters who follow Piper and Christian Hedonism, I would take care to affirm the good and true in their teaching, while also actively questioning the falsehoods taught there.
 
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