John the Baptist born without original sin?

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In Luke 1:15, it says John was “… filled with the holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb, …” Does that mean he did not have original sin?

Pax Christi :confused:
 
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fogie:
In Luke 1:15, it says John was “… filled with the holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb, …” Does that mean he did not have original sin?

Pax Christi :confused:
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No. Being filled with the Holy Spirit does not necessarily confer sinlessness. For example, Elizabeth is “filled with the holy spirit” (Luke 1:41) when she heard Mary’s greeting. But she was not without original sin.

Mary’s sinlessness was conferred by God through His grace (kecharito mene) and not through the Holy Spirit’s presence. Mary was graced before the Holy Spirit came to her (kecharito mene essentiall means “she who possesses the qualities of grace even before I [the Angel Gabriel] came.”).
 
It is Church teaching that John was freed from Original Sin when Mary greeted Elizabeth. That is why he lept in Elizabeth’s womb. That is also why we celebrate his birthday on June 25. We celebrate only three birthdays in the Church - Jesus, Mary, and John - The three born without Original Sin.
 
Joe Kelley:
It is Church teaching that John was freed from Original Sin when Mary greeted Elizabeth.
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I remember being taught that, too. It is also important to remember that Mary was not just born without original sin, but was conceived without original sin as well.
 
Joe Kelley:
It is Church teaching that John was freed from Original Sin when Mary greeted Elizabeth. .
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I believe you are wrong. I do not think the Church has ever formally taught that. But I think that John’s being freed from original sin is the common opinion of most Catholic theologians.
 
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PilgrimJWT:
I believe you are wrong. I do not think the Church has ever formally taught that…
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Can you state the basis for your assertion?
 
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NM2:
I remember being taught that, too. It is also important to remember that Mary was not just born without original sin, but was conceived without original sin as well.
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Why is it important to remember that?
 
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PilgrimJWT:
I believe you are wrong. I do not think the Church has ever formally taught that. But I think that John’s being freed from original sin is the common opinion of most Catholic theologians.
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See** Catechism of the Catholic Church Para 717**
"There was a man sent from God, whose name was John."89 John was "filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb"90 by Christ himself, whom the Virgin Mary had just conceived by the Holy Spirit. Mary’s visitation to Elizabeth thus became a visit from God to his people.91
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Tto be filled with the Holy Spirit is to be free of all sin.
 
The Barrister:
No. Being filled with the Holy Spirit does not necessarily confer sinlessness. For example, Elizabeth is “filled with the holy spirit” (Luke 1:41) when she heard Mary’s greeting. But she was not without original sin.
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The Barrister, at least, backs up my assertion (which I do not have a solid quote for, but only what I believe is common to most theological opinions) that John was not necessarily freed of original sin when he was filled with the Holy Spirit. But a good argument has been made for it.
 
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PilgrimJWT:
The Barrister, at least, backs up my assertion (which I do not have a solid quote for, but only what I believe is common to most theological opinions) that John was not necessarily freed of original sin when he was filled with the Holy Spirit. But a good argument has been made for it.
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Just to be sure I’m not taken out of context, being “filled with the Holy Spirit” does not necessarily mean that one was born without original sin. Mary, on the other hand, was “filled with grace” (without sin, including the stain of original sin) when the angel came to her.
 
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fogie:
In Luke 1:15, it says John was “… filled with the holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb, …” Does that mean he did not have original sin?

Pax Christi :confused:
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He WAS born without original sin but was not immaculately conceived
 
I was just listening to EWTN with Fr. Triglio. He said that John the Baptist was born into the world without original sin. I could not believe my ears. Is that truly a Roman Catholic belief?

Brother Camillus
 
This is what the Catholic Encyclodedia says:
Now during the sixth month, the Annunciation had taken place, and, as Mary had heard from the angel the fact of her cousin’s conceiving, she went “with haste” to congratulate her. “And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant” – filled, like the mother, with the Holy Ghost – “leaped for joy in her womb”, as if to acknowledge the presence of his Lord. Then was accomplished the prophetic utterance of the angel that the child should “be filled with the Holy Ghost even from his mother’s womb”. **Now as the presence of any sin whatever is incompatible with the indwelling of the Holy Ghost in the soul, it follows that at this moment John was cleansed from the stain of original sin. ** When “Elizabeth’s full time of being delivered was come,. . .she brought forth a son” (i, 57); and “on the eighth day they came to circumcise the child, and they called him by his father’s name Zachary. And his mother answering, said: Not so, but he shall be called John. And they said to her: There is none of thy kindred that is called by this name. And they made sign to his father, how he would have him called. And demanding a writing table, he wrote, saying: John is his name. And they all wondered” (i, 59-63). They were not aware that no better name could be applied (John, Hebr.; Jehohanan, i.e. “Jahweh hath mercy”) to him who, as his father prophesied, was to “go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; to give knowledge of salvation to his people, unto remission of their sins: through the bowels of the mercy of our God” (i, 76- 78). Moreover, all these events, to wit, a child born to an aged couple, Zachary’s sudden dumbness, his equally sudden recovery of speech, his astounding utterance, might justly strike with wonderment the assembled neighbours; these could hardly help asking: “What an one, think ye, shall this child be?” (i, 66).
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So, I think it has been the teaching of the Church but not a dogmatic teaching.
 
God is in control,He can do what He wants but He also does not contradict what He says. :confused:
 
It still amazses me that this topic comes up as often as it does.

This is clear evidence that catechesis is severely lacking in the church, and we all have an obligation to continue to enrich our knowledge of the Faith, if for no other reason than to avoid having an unbalanced perspective.

Our Faith is more than a list of things we are expected to know, it is a balanced, harmonious way of thinking and living. When a fact like this (this sinless birth of John the Forerunner) comes as a shock and surprise to us, it should be a signal that our way of thinking has been unbalanced in some way, and needs to be reviewed.

The sinless birth of John is one of the very earliest doctrines of the church, it almost certainly preceeds our Christological and Trinitarian understanding, and therefore any notion of Mary’s own sinlessness. In fact, a good case can be made for this doctrine being taught by Jesus Himself! Which means that this doctrine preceeds Pentecost, the establishment of the church as we know it and all that this may imply.

Yet some of us react with shock when taught this most ancient of doctrines, why is this? Why do people become so defensive, as if Our Lady’s virtue is at stake? Knowledge of John’s sinless birth by the Christian communiity almost certainly paved the way for our acceptance later of Mary’s sinless birth. He poses no threat to Our Lady, but rather paved the way for our own knowledge of her, analogous to his preparing the mission field for Our Lord Jesus Christ!
 
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