John the Baptist born without original sin

[thistle]

Unlike my previous erroneous thinking that John the Baptist being born free from original sin was simply a tradition my priest mentor put me in my place and told me it is not tradition but a Church teaching which we are bound by.

What he told me:

" If John the Baptist was not born free from original sin then he could not have been filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother’s womb. Original sin (and actual mortal sin also) means to be deprived of the grace of God This means that the Holy Spirit cannot have filled John from his mother’s womb at the moment of conception. John was conceived in original sin but while in his mother’s womb the Spirit came to remove original sin and filled him with the life of grace.
Catholics are not free to believe John was conceived free from original sin (which would contradict Sacred Scripture which says “He will be filled with the Holy Spirit” not “he is filled with the Holy Spirit.” Neither can Catholics believe that John was born in the state of original sin. This would again contradict Sacred Scripture which says John was filled with the Holy Spirit from his Mother’s womb."

 

[NotWorthy]

Unlike my previous erroneous thinking that John the Baptist being born free from original sin was simply a tradition my priest mentor put me in my place and told me it is not tradition but a Church teaching which we are bound by.

What he told me:

" If John the Baptist was not born free from original sin then he could not have been filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother’s womb. Original sin (and actual mortal sin also) means to be deprived of the grace of God This means that the Holy Spirit cannot have filled John from his mother’s womb at the moment of conception. John was conceived in original sin but while in his mother’s womb the Spirit came to remove original sin and filled him with the life of grace.
Catholics are not free to believe John was conceived free from original sin (which would contradict Sacred Scripture which says “He will be filled with the Holy Spirit” not “he is filled with the Holy Spirit.” Neither can Catholics believe that John was born in the state of original sin. This would again contradict Sacred Scripture which says John was filled with the Holy Spirit from his Mother’s womb."

I’m going to disagree with this line of reasoning. One can be filled with the Holy Spirit and not be in a state of grace. Didn’t this happen numerous times in the Old Testament? I mean, wasn’t Balaam filled with the Holy Spirit? I’ll see if I can find some more information.

And no, the Church teaches that ONLY Mary (and of course, Jesus) was conceived without original sin. John MIGHT have had his OS cleansed in the womb, but that is as far as I am willing to go, unless told otherwise.

Appended: Here is what Numbers 24:2 says about Balaam and the Holy Spirit. I’m not sure if this is the same thing as “being filled with the Holy Spirit”… I’ll let someone else make that call - When Balaam looked up and saw Israel encamped, tribe by tribe, the spirit of God came upon him,This was immediately prior to Balaam’s prophecies about Israel.

 

[thistle]

I’m going to disagree with this line of reasoning. One can be filled with the Holy Spirit and not be in a state of grace. Didn’t this happen numerous times in the Old Testament? I mean, wasn’t Balaam filled with the Holy Spirit? I’ll see if I can find some more information.

And no, the Church teaches that ONLY Mary (and of course, Jesus) was conceived without original sin. John MIGHT have had his OS cleansed in the womb, but that is as far as I am willing to go, unless told otherwise.

Appended: Here is what Numbers 24:2 says about Balaam and the Holy Spirit. I’m not sure if this is the same thing as “being filled with the Holy Spirit”… I’ll let someone else make that call - When Balaam looked up and saw Israel encamped, tribe by tribe, the spirit of God came upon him,This was immediately prior to Balaam’s prophecies about Israel.

I know John was conceived in original sin. My post does not say otherwise. It says John was conceived in original sin but born free from original sin. Why do you think my post said John was conceived in original sin?

 

[NotWorthy]

I know John was conceived in original sin. My post does not say otherwise. It says John was conceived in original sin but born free from original sin. Why do you think my post said John was conceived in original sin?

RATS!!! I think the “cannot’s” and “nots” confused me:

What he told me:

" If John the Baptist was not born free from original sin then he could not have been filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother’s womb. Original sin (and actual mortal sin also) means to be deprived of the grace of God This means that the Holy Spirit cannot have filled John from his mother’s womb at the moment of conception. John was conceived in original sin but while in his mother’s womb the Spirit came to remove original sin and filled him with the life of grace.
Catholics are not free to believe John was conceived free from original sin (which would contradict Sacred Scripture which says “He will be filled with the Holy Spirit” not “he is filled with the Holy Spirit.” Neither can Catholics believe that John was born in the state of original sin. This would again contradict Sacred Scripture which says John was filled with the Holy Spirit from his Mother’s womb."

Sorry about the confusion.

 

[DebChris]

The Blessed Mother was saved from Original sin at the first instance of her conception. That is why we say she was conceived without sin.

But lets not take the words conceived without sin out of context. She was saved at the Instance of her conception which is what WE as Catholic’s know and understand when we say conceived without sin.

But she was not conceived without sin, because as I stated her Mother had original sin. But the Blessed Mother was not touched by that original Sin because at the second of her conception she was saved by God.

That is why we say she was never touched by Original Sin because of the merits of her Son.

Please check the links provided which contain the Church’s dogmatic teaching.

 

[DebChris]

As the Church dogmatically teaches, Mary was conceived without Original Sin. The word checharitomone, from what I understand, certainly implies this as well. Hence, Mary would have received sanctifying Grace at her conception.

As someone pointed out, when Mary appeared to the young girl at Lourdes (Bernadette?), she introduced herself with the title, “I am the Immaculate Conception”. The local bishop was stunned when Bernadette told him Mary’s words, for he knew that the young girl would have had no clue what those words meant.

Additional links to the Dogma regarding the Immaculate Conception including the Ineffablus Deus Encyclical of Pope Pius IX in which he states that Mary was “free from all taint of original sin.”
newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
catholic.com/tracts/immaculate-conception-and-assumption
ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya2.htm Pope St. Pius V, in 1567 (DS 1973) condemned the error of Baius who said Our Lady was subject to original sin.
papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm
religioustolerance.org/virgin_b3.htm
philvaz.com/apologetics/a115.htm

Mary is the only creature created by God to be given this singular grace.
Adam and Eve, while created in a state of grace, lost that grace through their sin. This necessitated our need for salvation. John the Baptist, conceived in original sin, received the Holy Spirit within the womb so that he was born without sin. This does not mean that he did not sin throughout his life just as the rest of us sinners are prone to do. Even the righteous man sins seven times a day.