John XXII and the empty hell

[Reclusius]

I heard a rumor that pope John XXIII once stated that that hell eventually will be empty. Does anyone know what possibly could be the source of that rumour?

 

[DavidFilmer]

All Catholic theologians believe in hell, but there has been some theological speculation whether the Church has ever actually taught (as Doctrine) that hell is not empty (ie, has the Church ever taught, as Doctrine, that hell actually has people in it - or even one person).

I don’t know of any Catholic theologians who actually believe that hell is empty, but there seems to be a consensus that the Church has never officially taught one way or the other, and thus we cannot say with theological certainty that hell is not empty. Thus, if someone wants to actually claim that hell is empty, he could not be regarded as a heretic, because there is no established Doctrine. He might be a kook, but he would not be a heretic.

When theologians get bored, they like to think of stuff like this.

I don’t know whether John XXIII ever participated in this speculation. If he did, he would have done so as a private theologian, not in his capacity as Supreme Pontiff. Maybe he did, and this might be where this rumor originated.

But one thing we can be pretty sure about: he never speculated that anyone ever “gets out” of hell. That would definitely contradict established Doctrine, and would be heresy.

 

[meltzerboy]

All Catholic theologians believe in hell, but there has been some theological speculation whether the Church has ever actually taught (as Doctrine) that hell is not empty (ie, has the Church ever taught, as Doctrine, that hell actually has people in it - or even one person).

I don’t know of any Catholic theologians who actually believe that hell is empty, but there seems to be a consensus that the Church has never officially taught one way or the other, and thus we cannot say with theological certainty that hell is not empty. Thus, if someone wants to actually claim that hell is empty, he could not be regarded as a heretic, because there is no established Doctrine. He might be a kook, but he would not be a heretic.

When theologians get bored, they like to think of stuff like this.

I don’t know whether John XXIII ever participated in this speculation. If he did, he would have done so as a private theologian, not in his capacity as Supreme Pontiff. Maybe he did, and this might be where this rumor originated.

But one thing we can be pretty sure about: he never speculated that anyone ever “gets out” of hell. That would definitely contradict established Doctrine, and would be heresy.

I believe there is a Protestant notion of a non-eternal Hell among certain liberal theologians. Do you know anything about this? I recall Billy Graham once spoke about it. I assume, however, this idea is heretical to Catholic doctrine.

 

[Sonny1954]

Billy Graham would probably not be happy to be classified as a liberal protestant.

According to Father Barron, the Catholic doctrine is that Hell certainly exists, but
that no one knows who specifically is there, e.g. we can’t even say for certain that Hitler is there.

 

[GEddie]

I believe there is a Protestant notion of a non-eternal Hell among certain liberal theologians. Do you know anything about this? I recall Billy Graham once spoke about it. I assume, however, this idea is heretical to Catholic doctrine.

Correct. Hell is eternal, and there is an anathema attached to those who teach otherwise.

Still, nobody is doctrinally held to actually be in
Hell, and we are free to hope that nobody will be.

ICXC NIKA

 

[TeenageConvert]

I believe there is a Protestant notion of a non-eternal Hell among certain liberal theologians. Do you know anything about this? I recall Billy Graham once spoke about it. I assume, however, this idea is heretical to Catholic doctrine.

Like protestant purgatory?

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I believe there is a Protestant notion of a non-eternal Hell among certain liberal theologians. Do you know anything about this? I recall Billy Graham once spoke about it. I assume, however, this idea is heretical to Catholic doctrine.

The idea of a non-eternal hell has been floating around Christianity through essentially all of its history, though it does not fit well at all with the New Testament’s passages on the subject, and is completely contradicted in any case by Church teaching.

Basically the idea, as I’ve heard it proposed, redefines hell as, essentially, purgatory, from which after a period of punishment and purification for sins the soul will eventually be released and given the Beatific Vision.

I’ve also heard a Rabbinical Jewish interpretation of Gehenna that is essentially the same. You may know more about that than me.

Some Protestants (and some Catholics, wrongly) espouse this view. Also there are those fringe Protestants groups, such as the Seventh Day Adventists, who believe evil souls are actually annihilated, and that the Biblical image of punishment in hell is just a symbolic representation of this.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Like protestant purgatory?

The classic forms of Protestantism would condemn the idea very strongly.

 

[meltzerboy]

Like protestant purgatory?

I suppose it might be thought of in that way: a kind of Catholic (or Jewish) Purgatory in reverse. It’s the notion that the torment suffered by people in Hell does not last forever; G-d eventually releases them, but I don’t remember whether they would then go directly to Heaven. I have no idea whether this has any basis in Scripture.

 

[meltzerboy]

The idea of a non-eternal hell has been floating around Christianity through essentially all of its history, though it does not fit well at all with the New Testament’s passages on the subject, and is completely contradicted in any case by Church teaching.

Basically the idea, as I’ve heard it proposed, redefines hell as, essentially, purgatory, from which after a period of punishment and purification for sins the soul will eventually be released and given the Beatific Vision.

I’ve also heard a Rabbinical Jewish interpretation of Gehenna that is essentially the same. You may know more about that than me.

Some Protestants (and some Catholics, wrongly) espouse this view. Also there are those fringe Protestants groups, such as the Seventh Day Adventists, who believe evil souls are actually annihilated, and that the Biblical image of punishment in hell is just a symbolic representation of this.

Thank you for this information. Yes, the Jewish idea of Gehenna is a Purgatory of cleansing and atonement, but lasting no more than one year (except on the Sabbath), and actually one year only for “hard-core” sinners. During an eleven-month period of time, family members pray to G-d for mercy for their loved ones. The notion of annihilation of the souls of the incorrigibly wicked, who cannot be purified, is also held by some in Judaism. This represents a final separation from G-d, which is the ultimate Hell.

 

[Lancer]

The bible says there are souls in hell:

Jude
New International Version (NIV)
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a** similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion**. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Also…the seers of Fatima were shown hell and the souls in hell

Sister Lucy of Fatima Describes the
Vision of Hell

At Fatima**, the Blessed Virgin Mary told the three child seers that many souls go to hell because they have no one to pray or make sacrifices for them**.** In her Memoirs, Sister Lucy describes the vision of hell that Our Lady showed the children at Fatima**:
"She opened Her hands once more, as She had done the two previous months. The rays [of light] appeared to penetrate the earth, and we saw, as it were, a vast sea of fire. Plunged in this fire, we saw the demons and the souls [of the damned]. The latter were like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, having human forms. They were floating about in that conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames which issued from within themselves, together with great clouds of smoke. Now they fell back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fright (it must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me). The demons were distinguished [from the souls of the damned] by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. That vision only lasted for a moment, thanks to our good Heavenly Mother, Who at the first apparition had promised to take us to Heaven. Without that, I think that we would have died of terror and fear."

fatima.org/essentials/facts/hell.asp

Case closed for me…
Pax Christi

 

[Sonny1954]

St. Thomas Acquinas, according for Fr. Barron, wrote that we can have a “reasonable hope” that all will be saved.

As for the vision at Fatima, it is a private revelation (though held “worthy of belief”) and therefore not binding on the faithful.

Because God is love and cannot be anything other than love, I choose to side with Acquinas and have a “reasonable hope” that Hell is sparsely populated. If God were perfectly just, then every “saint” and every Pope who ever lived would justly be consigned to Hell. Since He is love right through, however, I don’t accept that proposition. I also believe that Purgatory is standing-room-only.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

I found a book written by Michael Hayes:
tinyurl.com/ce8ofhs

Scroll down past the Marian section to the section on Hell. Hayes sites John Paul’s book “Crossing the Threshold of Hope”.

But this was John Paul II not John XXII…I couldn’t find anything about that. Maybe just some info got crossed and it because John XXII.