Joining an army and near occasion of sin

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What makes being a military not a sin, even though it appears as an intentional putting of oneself in near occasion of sin?

I think I understand, I just need clear articulations of the situation.
 
nablaise said:
What makes being a military not a sin, even though it appears as an intentional putting of oneself in near occasion of sin?

I think I understand, I just need clear articulations of the situation.
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near occasion of which sin?
 
nablaise said:
What makes being a military not a sin, even though it appears as an intentional putting of oneself in near occasion of sin?

I think I understand, I just need clear articulations of the situation.
Click to expand...
Joining can be sinful,

The difference is this,

If person #1 joins the military, to defend his fatherland, and protect those living inside of it, he is not sinning, even though he might have to kill someone, he is doing it for good purposes.

If person #2 joins the military with his thoughts only to kill as many people as he can, and is using the military to “fund” his goal then yes, he could be considered putting himself into, or near the occasion of sin (murder)
 
One could always join a Navy, or better yet, a Coast Guard. The chances of being aboard ship and having to kill someone is really remote in this day and age. The only killing done today by Naval forces are by airplanes from aircraft carriers.
As for Coast Guards, they are largely maritime rescuers, and even during WWII rarely engaged in combat.
 
if you are saying that there is a possibility of killing what do you think of police men or guards at banks?
 
Periodically on this board I come across a post I simply must respond to, for no other reason than because I am both surprised by the post and equally in disagreement with essentially most or all of the advice offered in response.

This is one such thread. I’m sorry to be a complete curmudgeon, but…

OP asks, “What makes being a military not a sin…?”
–…As if it is always a sin simply to be in the military. It is not. Catholics are not required to be pacifists. Catholics are not required to refuse military service. The entire apparent premise – that joining the military is a sin – cannot be supported.

Redratfish responds, “Joining can be sinful” if done for the wrong reasons.
– This is theologically unsound, and unhelpful on a practical level, because essentially anything and everything can be sinful if done for the wrong reasons. In short, this answer only serves to confuse the OP.

George’s comment is also unhelpful: 1) It links joing the military with killing, which (falsely) suggests all killing is a sin (it is not); 2) it is factually false (Google “number of coastguardsmen killed in WWII” and see if the coast guard can be considered noncombatants…I’m gonna try googling “u-boats sunk in WWII by coast guard cutters” when I leave this thread, as my curiosity is piqued…).

Now, trying to answer OP, joing the military is not, per se, a sin, nor should it place the joiner in any specific near occasion of sin. It is – like a million other acts – generally morally neutral. That’s a concept often missing from this board: Some acts are not sinful, or laudable. Introducing the concept that they “can be sinful,” although techincally true, simply clouds the issue because anything can be sinful under certain circumstances. But MUST joining the military be sinful? No. Period.
 
Periodically on this board I come across a post I simply must respond to, for no other reason than because I am both surprised by the post and equally in disagreement with essentially most or all of the advice offered in response.

This is one such thread. I’m sorry to be a complete curmudgeon, but…

OP asks, “What makes being a military not a sin…?”
–…As if it is always a sin simply to be in the military. It is not. Catholics are not required to be pacifists. Catholics are not required to refuse military service. The entire apparent premise – that joining the military is a sin – cannot be supported.

Redratfish responds, “Joining can be sinful” if done for the wrong reasons.
– This is theologically unsound, and unhelpful on a practical level, because essentially anything and everything can be sinful if done for the wrong reasons. In short, this answer only serves to confuse the OP.

George’s comment is also unhelpful: 1) It links joing the military with killing, which (falsely) suggests all killing is a sin (it is not); 2) it is factually false (Google “number of coastguardsmen killed in WWII” and see if the coast guard can be considered noncombatants…I’m gonna try googling “u-boats sunk in WWII by coast guard cutters” when I leave this thread, as my curiosity is piqued…).

Now, trying to answer OP, joing the military is not, per se, a sin, nor should it place the joiner in any specific near occasion of sin. It is – like a million other acts – generally morally neutral. That’s a concept often missing from this board: Some acts are not sinful, or laudable. Introducing the concept that they “can be sinful,” although techincally true, simply clouds the issue because anything can be sinful under certain circumstances. But MUST joining the military be sinful? No. Period.
 
29 years Army here and imo the opportunities for sinful behavior were reduced by magnitudes when I was in uniform.
 
Carolus_Martell said:
29 years Army here and imo the opportunities for sinful behavior were reduced by magnitudes when I was in uniform.
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Very true. We tend to give article 15’s and disciplinary action to those who violate our rather strict rules. Air Force myself, and thanks for your service. I had the opportunity to work with the Army in Afghanistan and it was quite a culture shock, but I learned a lot of things to bring back to the Air Force (and also taught a lot of things to my Army counterparts). Huah Army!
 
I am sorry if I was misunderstood to be implying that joining the army is a sin.

I have been reflecting on ‘near occasions of sin’. Some of what appear to be near occasion of sin actually seem to be occasion of salvation/freedom. I am reflecting on this fact and I need thoughts around that.
 
Near occasions of sin can be found anywhere, but simply being in the military is not one of them.

I was in the U.S. Air Force for four years, and found the occasions of sin there to be far less numerous than in civilian life. One of my best friends, a former Marine, (Semper Fi) seems to me to have morally improved his life through his USMC service.
 
What about the issue of committing yourself to the judgment and command of others? If there is a Just War going on, ok, if you are called upon to kill immorally, that is an awful situation.

Is it adequately responsible to foreclose avoiding future sin in service of the armed forces, when you do not know beforehand whether what you are later relied upon to obey is moral?
 
VonDerTann said:
George’s comment is also unhelpful: 1) It links joing the military with killing, which (falsely) suggests all killing is a sin (it is not); 2) it is factually false (Google “number of coastguardsmen killed in WWII” and see if the coast guard can be considered noncombatants…I’m gonna try googling “u-boats sunk in WWII by coast guard cutters” when I leave this thread, as my curiosity is piqued…).
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Actually, we suffered a greater percentage of KIA than any other service during WWII due to our extremely small size. We sank a few U-boats as our cutters were tasked with convoy escort.

I have served in the Army and currently in the Coast Guard, and I think that the occasions to sin are just different. In the civilian workforce, I saw more “serious” sexual sins (adultery, fornication) and things like misuse of company time/equipment than now because the UCMJ has penalties for those acts (not saying they don’t still happen). Now I see more occasions for things like viewing porn, dirty jokes, and losing my temper. I also find it more of a challenge being Catholic in the military due to the “macho” culture and trying to be humble while still being a strong leader. There seem to be more opportunities for evangelization than in the civilian world.
 
I remain rather amazed that anyone would make the assumption that merely being in the military service was either sinful or an occasion of sin. As VonDerTann pointed out, the Catholic Church, at least, has never required pacifism. Should there be a draft, Catholics could not cite Catholic teaching as a basis for conscientious objector status, which is available only to those who oppose all war for any reason.

A year ago, one of the young priests of our diocese requested and was granted permission to join the Army as a Chaplain. He didn’t think he was joining a morally objectionable organization.

As for just war determinations, it is neither possible nor desirable for every soldier to make that determination on his own. That way lies chaos.

No matter what one does in life, one will be subject to the orders of others, as well as to the numerous requirements of the law. The military services, from what I have seen, tend to take a far more morally strict view of life than civilians, who sometimes tend to be more morally lax. Now, it’s been a long time since I was in the service, so I can’t speak from recent experience.
 
When I was a WAC (Womens Army Corp) back in the early '70’s, I found plenty of occasions to sin. I wasn’t a Christian at the time, so I found just as many, if not more, outside of the military.

My father, just before his death, told me a horrible story about his service in WWII. An officer ordered him to kill an unarmed German POW. He did - & it bothered him for the rest of his life. He did eventually, years after this, become a Christian. But the guilt never left him. In this case, I’m sure the officer was more guilty of sin than my father.

In spite of all this, I’m encouraging my young adult son in his search for a branch of the military that will take him in spite of his poor eyesight. The Air Force turned him down, so now he’s trying the Navy (which the Air Force eye doctor suggested). If they don’t take him, I’ll be pushing the Coast Guard - he’s talking Marines. :eek:
 
IIRC

The Catechism teaches that, for those in uniform/tasked with defending the common good
it is in fact a “Grave Duty” to do so.

As I read it, don’t put on the uniform and then shirk your duty as that would be sinful, in fact gravely so.

Sorry that I cant quote the paragraph # in the Catechism off the top of my head.

🙂
 
St Ignatius of Loyola volunteered, and even suffered a cannonball injury. St Francis of Assisi volunteered, fought, and was captured. They don’t seem to have been driven into sin by their experiences. 😉
 
Joining the army or any military branch is not a near occasion of sin. Killing as a combatant during a war is a morally neutral act. So, no, you are not putting yourself in the near occasion of sin by joining the military.
 
James1215 said:
What about the issue of committing yourself to the judgment and command of others? If there is a Just War going on, ok, if you are called upon to kill immorally, that is an awful situation.

Is it adequately responsible to foreclose avoiding future sin in service of the armed forces, when you do not know beforehand whether what you are later relied upon to obey is moral?
Click to expand...
If you commanded to kill immorally (an unlawful order) you are not obligated to obey. You are obligated only to follow all lawful orders. Say, If a commander orders you to go and kill unarmed women and children, you have every right under the UCMJ and the Law of War to refuse. You may be punished temporarily for disobeying a superior, but the black mark (and the subsequent possible punishment) that is going to show up on his record once the truth is revealed in due process will be far worse for him.
 
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