Joseph son of Jacob

[Equites_Christi]

Hello all,

In my humanities class as one of our readings to analyze we will be looking at the story of Joseph in Genesis, and I’m wondering if there’s anything I should know about it beforehand.

My professor, though a very kind man, has made it clear that he does not see the Bible as different from the myths of antiquity.

As an example, today in class he said that originally the Pandora myth spoke of a jar (pythos) but Erasmus changed it - likely by mistake - to a box (pyxis). He then said that originally Joseph’s coat was described as having many colors, but then Bible scholars realized that the original text does not imply that but rather a fancy garment. His point was that stories change over time, so he will likely treat it - and the Bible as a whole - as something that originated as a myth, probably borrowed from other ancient myths, and then passed through the telephone game.

I am keenly aware of the respect I must pay my professor and I don’t seek to cause a confrontation, but I very much want to be a witness to the faith. I doubt he has ever encountered a challenge to his assertions from his students. I mean, they’re college kids. They’re clueless

Any knowledge with which I can arm myself will be much appreciated!

 

[bogeydogg]

Hello all,

In my humanities class as one of our readings to analyze we will be looking at the story of Joseph in Genesis, and I’m wondering if there’s anything I should know about it beforehand.

My professor, though a very kind man, has made it clear that he does not see the Bible as different from the myths of antiquity.

As an example, today in class he said that originally the Pandora myth spoke of a jar (pythos) but Erasmus changed it - likely by mistake - to a box (pyxis). He then said that originally Joseph’s coat was described as having many colors, but then Bible scholars realized that the original text does not imply that but rather a fancy garment. His point was that stories change over time, so he will likely treat it - and the Bible as a whole - as something that originated as a myth, probably borrowed from other ancient myths, and then passed through the telephone game.

I am keenly aware of the respect I must pay my professor and I don’t seek to cause a confrontation, but I very much want to be a witness to the faith. I doubt he has ever encountered a challenge to his assertions from his students. I mean, they’re college kids. They’re clueless

Any knowledge with which I can arm myself will be much appreciated!

Leave it alone. The professor has the bully pulpit and the inclination of the class to believe him because he is the guy at the front of the room. If you openly and directly confront him you will lose because the situation is already stacked against you no matter what you say.

Ever notice Jesus said mostly nothing at his trials before the Sanhedrin, Pilate and Herod?

There is no point causing an uproar in a class situation because the guy at the front has an unfair advantage. And given that he has already laid down the Bible as a myth motif, I am betting what he is counting on is for someone to take the bait so he can get his yah yah’s beating you up in front of a room of nodding heads who will be predisposed to agree with the guy at the front of the room.

Live the Gospel. Pray for him and those who have to take his class. And let it go.

God Bless

 

[Equites_Christi]

Leave it alone. The professor has the bully pulpit and the inclination of the class to believe him because he is the guy at the front of the room. If you openly and directly confront him you will lose because the situation is already stacked against you no matter what you say.

Ever notice Jesus said mostly nothing at his trials before the Sanhedrin, Pilate and Herod?

There is no point causing an uproar in a class situation because the guy at the front has an unfair advantage. And given that he has already laid down the Bible as a myth motif, I am betting what he is counting on is for someone to take the bait so he can get his yah yah’s beating you up in front of a room of nodding heads who will be predisposed to agree with the guy at the front of the room.

Live the Gospel. Pray for him and those who have to take his class. And let it go.

God Bless

I had every intention of avoiding an uproar, I only wanted to have material for a calm, intellectual back-and-forth. But I definitely see your point. I’m just sorry that this is likely the only “scholarly” impression these students will ever get of the Bible.

I have prayed and will continue to pray for him. Thank you for your advice

 

[DCNBILL]

I had every intention of avoiding an uproar, I only wanted to have material for a calm, intellectual back-and-forth. But I definitely see your point. I’m just sorry that this is likely the only “scholarly” impression these students will ever get of the Bible.

I have prayed and will continue to pray for him. Thank you for your advice

As an aside, while you are studying this course you might want to check out a few “connections” between another Joseph son of Jacob from the first few chapters in Matthew, stuff like dreams and Egypt and such. This might make the class a bit more enjoyable for you.

 

[TryingToLearn]

Leave it alone. The professor has the bully pulpit and the inclination of the class to believe him because he is the guy at the front of the room. If you openly and directly confront him you will lose because the situation is already stacked against you no matter what you say.

Thankfully the apostles and martyrs of the early Church didn’t think this way…

It’s not matter of winning or losing. The only way you lose is by allowing lie’s about the Word of God to go unchallenged. The only way you win is by standing up for what you believe.

Find something simple to question him about, something that allows you to express that there is another opinion, one that happens to be true but you don’t have to prove that or intend to prove that if you aren’t ready. Who knows, you might speak up and trigger someone even more knowledgeable to add to the discussion. Or, you might just give someone else in that class the confidence to hold to dismiss the professor and hold to their faith if they see they aren’t alone…

 

[Robyn_p]

Thankfully the apostles and martyrs of the early Church didn’t think this way…

It’s not matter of winning or losing. The only way you lose is by allowing lie’s about the Word of God to go unchallenged. The only way you win is by standing up for what you believe.

Find something simple to question him about, something that allows you to express that there is another opinion, one that happens to be true but you don’t have to prove that or intend to prove that if you aren’t ready. Who knows, you might speak up and trigger someone even more knowledgeable to add to the discussion. Or, you might just give someone else in that class the confidence to hold to dismiss the professor and hold to their faith if they see they aren’t alone…

I agree theres a time to turn the other cheek and a time to “give a ready reason for the hope that is in you” (1 Pt 3:15) but always with charity. I just wish I could remember that in the heat of the moment… I always have a habit of panicking and staying quiet.

 

[bogeydogg]

Thankfully the apostles and martyrs of the early Church didn’t think this way…

It’s not matter of winning or losing. The only way you lose is by allowing lie’s about the Word of God to go unchallenged. The only way you win is by standing up for what you believe.

Find something simple to question him about, something that allows you to express that there is another opinion, one that happens to be true but you don’t have to prove that or intend to prove that if you aren’t ready. Who knows, you might speak up and trigger someone even more knowledgeable to add to the discussion. Or, you might just give someone else in that class the confidence to hold to dismiss the professor and hold to their faith if they see they aren’t alone…

I didn’t say don’t say anything, I said don’t try to get into and open debate with the guy at the front of the room. You can tactfully ask questions which disagree with his position without opening yourself to being castigated in front of a room full of people who are probably predisposed to agree with the professor.

God Bless

 

[TryingToLearn]

I didn’t say don’t say anything, I said don’t try to get into and open debate with the guy at the front of the room. You can tactfully ask questions which disagree with his position without opening yourself to being castigated in front of a room full of people who are probably predisposed to agree with the professor.

God Bless

Thanks for the clarification. Your opening line of “Leave it alone,” led me to read the rest as an admonishment to not even question or do anything to introduce a contrary point of view…

 

[bogeydogg]

Thanks for the clarification. Your opening line of “Leave it alone,” led me to read the rest as an admonishment to not even question or do anything to introduce a contrary point of view…

Yes, when I know I am outnumbered I try to find to tactful ways to disagree without escalating into arguing because sometimes there is no point. But a quite answer which turns away wrath will do more to show the truth of the Faith than to be loud and captious which is what the secular world expects us to be.

The cool headed response which disagrees respectfully will earn more listeners than the bombastic loudmouth.

That was the great failing of Martin Luther. In his letters he asked for council and for debate and for open forum questioning but in his published works and in person he fell into name calling and yelling which earned him no listeners at all. Had Luther’s personality been different I think the split between the Lutheran and Catholic Church never happens because I have found that true Lutherans are most certainly not Reformed and are much closer to Catholic than any protestant branch excepting perhaps very conservative Anglicans.

That is why I advised to not argue because it doesn’t help in some situations. And if the student can disagree calmly and reasonably without bombast or anger then many more words will be heard than to simply fight with the professor which will do no good at all.

God Bless

 

[TryingToLearn]

That is why I advised to not argue because it doesn’t help in some situations. And if the student can disagree calmly and reasonably without bombast or anger then many more words will be heard than to simply fight with the professor which will do no good at all.

God Bless

I’m all for arguing… of course, I take the broader view that an argument isn’t necessarily a shouting match, it doesn’t necessarily appear contentious… a good argument can be a series of thought provoking questions that imply a case for or against a position and may even lead the questioned to a new thought… the Socratic method has its uses and falls within my broader definition of what arguing can be…

But, I realize (though sometimes manage to forget) that the common concept of argument is confrontation, exposition, fact slinging, etc…

I definitely agree, in this circumstance I would not directly try to argue the historical nature of that part of Genesis. The argument, for me, is to be made is elsewhere…

From what the OP presented, I might go after his equating the change in the Pandora myth to the translation adjustments made in the story of Joseph. “Is changing the actual object really the same as adjusting the translation to make it more understandable to a contemporary reader?”

My line of questioning, reasoning and discussion would be rooted in ideas such as this:

A modern reader may not realize that having many colors implied great value, a many colored coat to the ancient reader would have immediately said “fancy”, “expensive”, “grand”. To a more modern reader in a world of cheap dyes, “many colored” might suggest gaudy, cheap, tie dyed, or something other than “fancy”.

Are the facts changed? Or did was it merely making sure the facts were received by the audience of a different culture and era?

Going from a jar to a box, there is a material change. And that highlights the difference between myth and the Bible. Myth is soft of facts, historical context, etc… When did it happen? Sometime in the past. Where? The location changed. Who was involved? What was involved. Depends on who you ask and the facts can’t be reconciled.

Whereas the Bible, in answer to those questions is hard on facts. People involved that have absolute lineages, events in a definite time frame, facts that are static, it’s just translational adaptations that are perceived as the story changing…

And when you get to the New Testament, you not only have all that, but there is external historical evidence to help authenticate. Peter was crucified because he taught the facts as written. The facts as written all point to being historical involving very specific locations, precise times, and real people that could be substantiated…

 

[bogeydogg]

I’m all for arguing… of course, I take the broader view that an argument isn’t necessarily a shouting match, it doesn’t necessarily appear contentious… a good argument can be a series of thought provoking questions that imply a case for or against a position and may even lead the questioned to a new thought… the Socratic method has its uses and falls within my broader definition of what arguing can be…

But, I realize (though sometimes manage to forget) that the common concept of argument is confrontation, exposition, fact slinging, etc…

I definitely agree, in this circumstance I would not directly try to argue the historical nature of that part of Genesis. The argument, for me, is to be made is elsewhere…

From what the OP presented, I might go after his equating the change in the Pandora myth to the translation adjustments made in the story of Joseph. “Is changing the actual object really the same as adjusting the translation to make it more understandable to a contemporary reader?”

My line of questioning, reasoning and discussion would be rooted in ideas such as this:

A modern reader may not realize that having many colors implied great value, a many colored coat to the ancient reader would have immediately said “fancy”, “expensive”, “grand”. To a more modern reader in a world of cheap dyes, “many colored” might suggest gaudy, cheap, tie dyed, or something other than “fancy”.

Are the facts changed? Or did was it merely making sure the facts were received by the audience of a different culture and era?

Going from a jar to a box, there is a material change. And that highlights the difference between myth and the Bible. Myth is soft of facts, historical context, etc… When did it happen? Sometime in the past. Where? The location changed. Who was involved? What was involved. Depends on who you ask and the facts can’t be reconciled.

Whereas the Bible, in answer to those questions is hard on facts. People involved that have absolute lineages, events in a definite time frame, facts that are static, it’s just translational adaptations that are perceived as the story changing…

And when you get to the New Testament, you not only have all that, but there is external historical evidence to help authenticate. Peter was crucified because he taught the facts as written. The facts as written all point to being historical involving very specific locations, precise times, and real people that could be substantiated…

Exactly.

The other thing that distinguishes the Bible from myth is that the Bible actually makes truth claims couched in time and place. This thing happened to this person at this time; myths lack this sort of distinction of background fact.

Also I think the thing that sets the Bible apart is how normal most of it is. I have often heard people say that they can’t believe the Bible because it is “Full of miracles” the odd thing is, while miracles are a definite part of the Biblical narrative, it is not as though they are on every page.

Also people will say, “The Bible is full of contradictions,” to which I say, “Show them to me.”

These are ways to argue without being confrontational. We can challenge these truth claims made against the Bible without being bombastic is what I am saying.

God Bless

 

[donsnow]

Thankfully the apostles and martyrs of the early Church didn’t think this way…

It’s not matter of winning or losing. The only way you lose is by allowing lie’s about the Word of God to go unchallenged. The only way you win is by standing up for what you believe.

Find something simple to question him about, something that allows you to express that there is another opinion, one that happens to be true but you don’t have to prove that or intend to prove that if you aren’t ready. Who knows, you might speak up and trigger someone even more knowledgeable to add to the discussion. Or, you might just give someone else in that class the confidence to hold to dismiss the professor and hold to their faith if they see they aren’t alone…

Good evening, Trying to Learn and Equites Christi,

I have worked with the Holy Spirit dealing with a confused atheist. I obey Jesus the Christ, who tells His disciples to take no thought what they will say, that the words they need will be given them [by the Holy Spirit] within the hour they are to speak.

That being said, bogeydogg has the right approach. Do respect the professor as head of that class. Also, do respect his faith system, such as it is.

Equites Christi, on your way to that class room, pray. Pray for guidance. Pray for the professor, pray for your fellow students. Their souls are at stake. Then, follow the Spirit.
Have you considered withdrawing from that class to get another instructor for the same subject? That’s always a consideration.

TryingToLearn, I’ve been a Christian since 1954 and Catholic since 1968. I’ve been around church people and around atheist college professors (in 1999 I was in an Engllish Composition class the professor of which loved to bash God. I just bit my tongue, since the Holy Spirit was not moving me to speak.) The Apostles and martyrs were in the Holy Spirit and moving with Him, when they preached, as they lived and as they died. The Holy Spirit gave them the victory. Neither you, nor Equites Chr4isti nor I can save anybody of ourselves. But, in Christ Jesus, following His Holy Spirit, that is how salvation works. That’s why bogeydogg is right.

I apologize for my tardy arrival.

God loves all of you, lurkers, too,
Don

 

[TryingToLearn]

This is the Catholic Answers Apologetics forum.

A Catholic ended up in a class with an atheist professor that is denying the Word of God’s Truth.

He felt uncomfortable and the still small voice of his heart said he should prepare a defense for what he believes.

This Catholic believes the Church.

This Catholic was aware of these forums, a resource for people to defend the faith.

He posts asking for help and all but me say be quiet, run away, don’t profess your faith.

I stand strong in my faith.

Sure looks like he is being prompted to action. Something told him turn to CAF for help. It sure seems like the Holy Spirit is trying to move in him. And instead of encouraging him to trust that God will put the questions and words that he may need in his mouth he is encouraged to withdraw from the class, be silent and respectful while someone calls Sacred Scripture made up myth?

Trust that if you speak up to defend God’s word the Holy Spirit will move in you. One of the recurring messages of the Gospels is exactly that, take a step out in faith and God will provide.

This isn’t a high risk situation. He isn’t going to be able to win, because we never win souls for God, God does the work.

Why is Equites, a Catholic that feels like he is being asked to say something, knows about CAF and came here seeking support in that class?

Equites needs to discern that. A big part of discernment is looking at what Scripture and the Church teach and determining what action is most in line with the revealed Truth. Defending God’s Word or duck and cover and let Satan’s lies stand unchallenged?

 

[bogeydogg]

This is the Catholic Answers Apologetics forum.

A Catholic ended up in a class with an atheist professor that is denying the Word of God’s Truth.

He felt uncomfortable and the still small voice of his heart said he should prepare a defense for what he believes.

This Catholic believes the Church.

This Catholic was aware of these forums, a resource for people to defend the faith.

He posts asking for help and all but me say be quiet, run away, don’t profess your faith.

I stand strong in my faith.

Sure looks like he is being prompted to action. Something told him turn to CAF for help. It sure seems like the Holy Spirit is trying to move in him. And instead of encouraging him to trust that God will put the questions and words that he may need in his mouth he is encouraged to withdraw from the class, be silent and respectful while someone calls Sacred Scripture made up myth?

Trust that if you speak up to defend God’s word the Holy Spirit will move in you. One of the recurring messages of the Gospels is exactly that, take a step out in faith and God will provide.

This isn’t a high risk situation. He isn’t going to be able to win, because we never win souls for God, God does the work.

Why is Equites, a Catholic that feels like he is being asked to say something, knows about CAF and came here seeking support in that class?

Equites needs to discern that. A big part of discernment is looking at what Scripture and the Church teach and determining what action is most in line with the revealed Truth. Defending God’s Word or duck and cover and let Satan’s lies stand unchallenged?

I never said duck and cover. I said open confrontation would be useless because…

1. The guy at the front of the room is leading the discussion and as such has every possible advantage
2. The guy at the front of the room is handing out the grades and so the class is predisposed to take his/her word over a pupil’s
3. To allow a discussion to escalate into an argument/emotional exchange gives the guy at the front of the room the audience to exercise his power to stifle the student and rant on and on.

Therefore…

I said be tactful. Ask questions which politely disagree with the Prof’s stance and don’t confront him/her in a bombastic manner. A kind word turns away wrath. A student who asks a question and then gets bombed by the prof can simply say, “I don’t understand why you are angry with me all I did was ask a question.”

I didn’t say, “Say nothing.” I said, “Be sly as serpents and gentle as doves.”

We cannot solve problems like this by lobbing grenades at those who disagree with us because then we are cast as the villain. Instead we have to be peaceful and tactful and use the wisdom given us by God to disagree without disrespecting the office of the person God has placed us under.

God Bless

 

[TryingToLearn]

I never said duck and cover. I said open confrontation would be useless because…

1. The guy at the front of the room is leading the discussion and as such has every possible advantage
2. The guy at the front of the room is handing out the grades and so the class is predisposed to take his/her word over a pupil’s
3. To allow a discussion to escalate into an argument/emotional exchange gives the guy at the front of the room the audience to exercise his power to stifle the student and rant on and on.

Therefore…

I said be tactful. Ask questions which politely disagree with the Prof’s stance and don’t confront him/her in a bombastic manner. A kind word turns away wrath. A student who asks a question and then gets bombed by the prof can simply say, “I don’t understand why you are angry with me all I did was ask a question.”

I didn’t say, “Say nothing.” I said, “Be sly as serpents and gentle as doves.”

We cannot solve problems like this by lobbing grenades at those who disagree with us because then we are cast as the villain. Instead we have to be peaceful and tactful and use the wisdom given us by God to disagree without disrespecting the office of the person God has placed us under.

God Bless

I know I said the last would be my final say but two things…

First, my “duck and cover” was more directed at the “withdraw from the class” suggestion in another post…

Second, what strikes me most is that I can see how you may and others may have intended their posts, but look at what happened in this thread. The OP responded once and what was his take away?

He’ll say nothing. Instead of finding apologists ready to support him in actively defending his faith, even in subtle, non-confrontational, charitable and simple ways, he’ll quietly let the Truth remain hidden…

When I’m teaching my Confirmation students a huge part of my message is own your faith. Never be afraid to stand up for what you believe because a) it’s the only Truth there is, b) the Truth can never fail, c) if you act upon your faith, God will take the wheel and d) we will never win or lose a soul. We will either make ourselves available for God to use to win souls, or we’ll cooperate with denying the Truth.

We’re are sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit. It’s a gift to be shared.

 

[De_Maria]

Hello all,

In my humanities class as one of our readings to analyze we will be looking at the story of Joseph in Genesis, and I’m wondering if there’s anything I should know about it beforehand.

My professor, though a very kind man, has made it clear that he does not see the Bible as different from the myths of antiquity.

As an example, today in class he said that originally the Pandora myth spoke of a jar (pythos) but Erasmus changed it - likely by mistake - to a box (pyxis). He then said that originally Joseph’s coat was described as having many colors, but then Bible scholars realized that the original text does not imply that but rather a fancy garment. His point was that stories change over time, so he will likely treat it - and the Bible as a whole - as something that originated as a myth, probably borrowed from other ancient myths, and then passed through the telephone game.

I am keenly aware of the respect I must pay my professor and I don’t seek to cause a confrontation, but I very much want to be a witness to the faith. I doubt he has ever encountered a challenge to his assertions from his students. I mean, they’re college kids. They’re clueless

Any knowledge with which I can arm myself will be much appreciated!

Here’s what I would do. You say the professor is kind man, so he will probably consider your challenge an opportunity to debate. So, let us play the telephone game.

1. First, take the class through the typical telephone game the way it is played by clueless teachers who don’t even recognize that their profession is a PROOF of the validity of TRADITION BY WORD AND LETTER.

Ask them to participate or describe for them a situation where one person tells another some fact and then another and after several calls, the message is found to be distorted.

1. THEN take the class through the system which was followed by the Jews and the Catholic Church to this day. Have a message passed to another in writing. Have that same person explain the meaning of the message and have that person demonstrate the message. THAT IS THE ESSENCE OF SCRIPTURE AND TRADITION. Then after the person has LEARNED the message in every aspect, have him teach the next the same way. By word, letter and demonstration.
2. And then explain to the Class that it is a STRAW MAN to claim that every teaching which came down from antiquity could be easily changed by mistake or by neglect. Because the people who wrote the Scriptures and taught the Word of God did not take lightly their duties. It was literally, for them, as important as life or death.

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[donsnow]

This is the Catholic Answers Apologetics forum.

A Catholic ended up in a class with an atheist professor that is denying the Word of God’s Truth.

He felt uncomfortable and the still small voice of his heart said he should prepare a defense for what he believes.

This Catholic believes the Church.

This Catholic was aware of these forums, a resource for people to defend the faith.

He posts asking for help and all but me say be quiet, run away, don’t profess your faith.

I stand strong in my faith.

Sure looks like he is being prompted to action. Something told him turn to CAF for help. It sure seems like the Holy Spirit is trying to move in him. And instead of encouraging him to trust that God will put the questions and words that he may need in his mouth he is encouraged to withdraw from the class, be silent and respectful while someone calls Sacred Scripture made up myth?

Trust that if you speak up to defend God’s word the Holy Spirit will move in you. One of the recurring messages of the Gospels is exactly that, take a step out in faith and God will provide.

This isn’t a high risk situation. He isn’t going to be able to win, because we never win souls for God, God does the work.

Why is Equites, a Catholic that feels like he is being asked to say something, knows about CAF and came here seeking support in that class?

Equites needs to discern that. A big part of discernment is looking at what Scripture and the Church teach and determining what action is most in line with the revealed Truth. Defending God’s Word or duck and cover and let Satan’s lies stand unchallenged?

Good evening, TryingToLearn,

I advised Equites Christi to pray, and to not devise what to say. I advised him that the Holy Spirit would give him the words to say.

It looks like the part where I mentioned that neither he, nor I, nor you can save anybody went right over your head. I’ve seen the Holy Spirit work through my life and that is always spontaneously. I advised him to respect the professor’s belief system, such as it is, because we are to obey Jesus Christ when He says, "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."d Ipso facto, the best way to win the professors’s respect for the Catholic faith is to obey Jesus Christ and respect the professor’s belief system, such as it is.

I’m not backing down. When I think somebody’s an instigator, I do sound off. I repeat, bogeydogg is right, and I affirm I’m in the right to exhort us all to obey Jesus Christ and to listen for the Holy Spirit in all things to do with our Catholic faith.

We are to be humble, like our Savior.

God loves you,
Don

 

[Equites_Christi]

Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough:

I am very, very, very aware of the need for tact. I know that the moment I start to become emotional or disrespectful is the moment I have done a disservice to the truth, because I have turned others away from it. I know that without charity I am a “resounding gong.”

I will pray that the Spirit will give me the words to say, or stay my tongue, according to His will.

 

[donsnow]

Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough:

I am very, very, very aware of the need for tact. I know that the moment I start to become emotional or disrespectful is the moment I have done a disservice to the truth, because I have turned others away from it. I know that without charity I am a “resounding gong.”

I will pray that the Spirit will give me the words to say, or stay my tongue, according to His will.

Good afternoon, Equites Christi,

I commend your decision.

If I remember right, in that God bashing professor’s class, I was too angry to hear the Holy Spirit, so I kept my peace.

God loves you,
Don

 

[bogeydogg]

Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough:

I am very, very, very aware of the need for tact. I know that the moment I start to become emotional or disrespectful is the moment I have done a disservice to the truth, because I have turned others away from it. I know that without charity I am a “resounding gong.”

I will pray that the Spirit will give me the words to say, or stay my tongue, according to His will.

And that is wise. Of course you should always defend the truth and I would never say otherwise. I am just glad to hear that you are being guided by the Spirit and prudence in this matter.

God Bless