"...Joshua destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded."

[CalledtoServe]

Something I find difficult to reconcile in the Bible is the Israelites slaughter of entire cities men, women, and children at the command of God. For example, from Joshua 10:28-40 there are 7 references to Joshua and his men slaughtering everyone in different cities. Joshua 10:40 states, “So Joshua defeated the whole land…he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded.”

I am a faithful Catholic who accepts the Church in spite of an inability to understand all that is taught. Now, if I have a difficulty with these actions then there must be nonbelievers who reject Christianity simply based on what seems to be an inconsistency in the character of God.

Who can help me understand these actions, so that I can maybe help others to understand?

 

[Todd_Easton]

God was simply doing through Joshua and his army what He did to the whole world with the flood at the time of Noah and what He did to Sodom and Gomorrah with the rain of fire at the time of Abraham, destroying every living thing as punishment for man’s corruption and lawlessness.

 

[Shinobu]

I’m finding this on an Atheists forum as well. I found myself doubting at times.

Why does God want these people to die? If we all have free will, why destroy them? People today are allowed to live and do terrible things to other people, yet they are not killed by God. Even in the Bible it says that the wicked are allowed to remain because it would hurt the good (I think there was a parable of weeds used).

How can I help others learn of the Catholic faith if the Bible comes off as wicked and evil? How can I say that our God is loving and merciful if he wants women and children slaughtered?

I understand OT laws were different, but does that still make it okay? People are always killing others in “the name of God”. Why is it okay?

 

[flamingsword]

As a child grows and matures the way you deal with the child changes. It is a fact of life, you cannot treat the child the same as a baby and as a teen. Try it if you don’t believe me. You must look at the world at the time of the Isrealites. The fullness of revelation was not yet close to being revealed to them, God was working a plan that was delicate. His chosen people were whimsicle and prone to falling. Jast as are children. You cannot say to a child, your conscience should tell you not to do something. The parent has to be the conscience of the child and help form the child’s own conscience. This is done through rewards and punishments. At the same time a teenager or adult who is more mature should have their own conscience well formed, hopefully no longer needing the external rewards and punishments. Children also learn from the example of others and how they were dealt with.

God brought the human race to this maturity gradually, with the culmination in the Incarnation. In both cases the parents don’t change, the philosophy of the parents don’t change, the love of the parents don’t change, but the way of the parents changes. We should be mature enough now in our faith and have all the tools, aka sacraments, we need to live our lives without God requiring such drastic measures, yet at times it has become necessary after the Incarnation. Take for instance the Crusades, a very necessary endevour right for the time they occured.

You must realize also that this life is transitory and that God is Lord over it. We live only by his gift, and we die through his decree.

There is an appointed time for everything, and a time for every affair under the heavens.
2
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to uproot the plant.
3
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to tear down, and a time to build.
4
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance.
5
A time to scatter stones, and a time to gather them; a time to embrace, and a time to be far from embraces.
6
A time to seek, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away.
7
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to be silent, and a time to speak.
8
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Ecclesiastes chapter 3

 

[CalledtoServe]

flamingsword:

As a child grows and matures the way you deal with the child changes. It is a fact of life, you cannot treat the child the same as a baby and as a teen. Try it if you don’t believe me. You must look at the world at the time of the Isrealites. The fullness of revelation was not yet close to being revealed to them, God was working a plan that was delicate. His chosen people were whimsicle and prone to falling. Jast as are children. You cannot say to a child, your conscience should tell you not to do something. The parent has to be the conscience of the child and help form the child’s own conscience. This is done through rewards and punishments. At the same time a teenager or adult who is more mature should have their own conscience well formed, hopefully no longer needing the external rewards and punishments. Children also learn from the example of others and how they were dealt with.

God brought the human race to this maturity gradually, with the culmination in the Incarnation. In both cases the parents don’t change, the philosophy of the parents don’t change, the love of the parents don’t change, but the way of the parents changes. We should be mature enough now in our faith and have all the tools, aka sacraments, we need to live our lives without God requiring such drastic measures, yet at times it has become necessary after the Incarnation. Take for instance the Crusades, a very necessary endevour right for the time they occured.

You must realize also that this life is transitory and that God is Lord over it. We live only by his gift, and we die through his decree.

Ecclesiastes chapter 3

You’ve presented a very interesting analogy; however, your analogy seems to apply to the Israelites. How about the other people of the world; the drastic measures I’m referring to were taken against these people who did not even know God and His laws. Were they even given a chance or were they just God’s pawns in an attempt to shape the Israelites into maturity?

 

[Gratias_Grace]

Shinobu:

I’m finding this on an Atheists forum as well. I found myself doubting at times.?

Well the atheists jobs are ecaxtly that; to start to make you doubt that God is not good and to make you unsure about his existance. (Who do you think is the boss of the atheists)?

Why does God want these people to die? If we all have free will, why destroy them?

These people died in the Old Covenant before Jesus had opened Heaven. They died in the time when God was trying to make the Israelites understand that there is only ONE God and that the consequences of worshiping other gods, and not the Creator, is DEATH. If we (living in the New Covenant that Jesus instituted chose to do evil (worship other gods) we will not be welcomed in Heaven but have chosen our own destinatination in Hell.

Those who died in the Old Covenant probably got the chance to say YES or NO to Christ between his death and his resurrection.

People today are allowed to live and do terrible things to other people, yet they are not killed by God. Even in the Bible it says that the wicked are allowed to remain because it would hurt the good (I think there was a parable of weeds used).

Yes! Remember that the story in the Bible (OT) is the story about how men fell in sin and about Gods plan to rescue us from TOTALY DEATH (no life). He carried out his plan through** a couple ** (Adam and Eve, the parents of Set), through **a family ** (Noah and his family), through **a tribe ** (Abraham), through **a people ** (the Israelites (the heirs of Jakob/Israel who was the son of Isak)), through a kingdom and a nation (king David) and, **at last ** in THE NEW COVENANT, through the Messiah of the whole world, Jesus.

The OT is the story of Salvtion, not the worlds history. There might have lived a lot of other people in the same time period, that might have killed each other and have had wars against each other. That they are not mentioned in the Bible does not mean that they were not important for God, but that they were not important for the message to the whole world: ** You shall have no other gods before me.**

Probably they, too, got the chance to say YES or NO to the everlasting life when Jesus opend Heaven.

We live today in the New Covenant and we will have no new chances after death. We have a free will and God accepts that we use it for good or for evil.

But even suffering can be used for good (remember how Joseph was sold to Egypt by his brothers and how this evil doing later saved the Israelites from death by hunger?).

I will reccomend you this book about how suffering can be for good in the long run: “Making Sense Out of Suffering” by Peter Kreeft.

covenantbookstore.com/maksenoutofs.html

I understand OT laws were different, but does that still make it okay? People are always killing others in “the name of God”. Why is it okay?

About wars in the name of God (now under the New Covenant), I don’t think it is legitimate.

The catholic rules for selfprotecting war: See CCC 2302 and below under the heading of “III. SAFEGUARDING PEACE”

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm#III

How can I help others learn of the Catholic faith if the Bible comes off as wicked and evil? How can I say that our God is loving and merciful if he wants women and children slaughtered?

Tell them the differance about the Old Covenant and the New Covenant!

Peace to you!!

:bible1:

 

[Gratias_Grace]

Gratias Grace:

I will reccomend you this book about how suffering can be for good in the long run: “Making Sense Out of Suffering” by Peter Kreeft.

covenantbookstore.com/maksenoutofs.html

… … … … …

Peace to you!!

:bible1:

Yes, the book is good, but after posting I found out that the link I gave perhaps was a protestant link. The book is publiched by St. Anthony Messangers Press. I think this is the right catholic web-adress:

catalog.americancatholic.org/product.aspx?prodid=T2193&pcat=73

 

[Shinobu]

Thank you very kindly for your post, that will make things much easier when I try to explain to others!

 

[volzcpa]

The reasons are given in Deuteronomy 9:4-5

"After the LORD, your God, has thrust them out of your way, do not say to yourselves, ‘It is because of my merits that the LORD has brought me in to possess this land’; for it is really because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out before you.

No, it is not because of your merits or the integrity of your heart that you are going in to take possession of their land; but the LORD, your God, is driving these nations out before you on account of their wickedness and in order to keep the promise which he made on oath to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."

 

[CalledtoServe]

volzcpa:

The reasons are given in Deuteronomy 9:4-5

"After the LORD, your God, has thrust them out of your way, do not say to yourselves, ‘It is because of my merits that the LORD has brought me in to possess this land’; for it is really because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out before you.

No, it is not because of your merits or the integrity of your heart that you are going in to take possession of their land; but the LORD, your God, is driving these nations out before you on account of their wickedness and in order to keep the promise which he made on oath to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."

I understand this in the case of the adults. But were the children wicked in God’s eyes? Why condemn them for the sins of their parents. This I don’t understand.

 

[Liberian]

CalledtoServe:

You’ve presented a very interesting analogy; however, your analogy seems to apply to the Israelites. How about the other people of the world; the drastic measures I’m referring to were taken against these people who did not even know God and His laws. Were they even given a chance or were they just God’s pawns in an attempt to shape the Israelites into maturity?

Called To Serve,

I don’t know where and in what societies you have lived, but most Americans don’t have much experience with truly and absolutely wicked societies. Getting massacred is not necessarily the worst thing that can happen.

With respect to the ancient Israelites, the pagan societies also presented a threat. If their culture was allowed to continue, it would lead the Israelites into idolatry–as in fact did happen. And it is very difficult to destroy a culture while allowing its practitioners–even the very young ones–to live.

• Liberian