Judgement, pride, and control.

[Greg27]

*(cont.)

Is it wrong to begin to make your own decisions as a young adult? I think not. How does one progress into the real world when you are forbidden to make some important choices, either personal or financial, and learn from them? Those of you with a strong faith, perhaps a family of their own, what say you?

There is something here that eats me up inside… the feeling I get is a combination of anger, frustration, helplessness, and a failure to accept these kinds of things:

Judgement, pride, and control.

To top the story off with my GF’s family, I get the impression that they are quick to judge. I recently met with her oldest sister for the first time - maybe a few hours total - and apparently she “wasn’t impressed”. How is this a fair assessment? We had chatted through some pleasant conversations, I had met her husband and children, and so on. I did nothing out of the ordinary (me being a socially anxious person is HIGHLY aware of these things), certainly nothing to deserve such a judgment. This seems to be a common thread in the family as they have very strong opinions, including stereotypes. The times I have visited their place (parents’), I have seen things like Ann Coulter books lying around and the such, which needless to say, burns me.
Can you look me in the eyes and tell me, with absolute and unwavering certainty, that you know the way? Tell me, how is it that you do? Is it your choice; Have you spontaneously found this path or was it introduced to you (ie upbringing) and you’d thought you’d just go along with it? How many of you with rock-like faith have ever practiced, or even researched other systems of belief? It’s a shame - jumping back to GF’s father as an example this time - my GF told her father that she was taking a World Religions class and that she was enjoying it. Her father told her that it’s only important to know that there are other religions out there, not to know what they’re about. What is this? Why not? These are sincere questions I have, for I really fail to understand why we can’t live and let live… why such a black and white, us vs. them mentality (No, this is not a bash on Catholics, but more aimed at monotheistic ideology, in general - it just so happens that a few Catholics I know are very staunch in their views, hence I am here)? Do you find the religion, or does the religion find you - meaning whatever belief system best suites your personality?
Perhaps better seats in heaven?

There are some complex questions here. I think it is important to realise that within the Catholic Church itself, there are a range of viewpoints which vary from extreme conservatism to strong liberalism on a range of difficult questions.

The Christian faith, like all world religions, is facing some severe questions pertaining to authority, reason, truth, and rationality in the face of an extremely pluralistic, postmodern and relativistic world in which each person is confronted with a remarkable variety of beliefs and practices and moral viewpoints. The good thing in a globalised world is we are learning from each other and also that there is a huge treasury of wisdom and learning and knowledge amoung the world’s different religions and philosophies on recurring questions of ‘ultimate concern.’ The downside though, is that there has been a very deep disintegration of a sense of coherence, of truth, of rationality and of knowledge and a set of standards we can all agree on by which we can all use to reach a final truth or set of truths. This is the dream of Western philosophy since the time of Plato and certainly also the dream of the Enlightenment, but this has been replaced in the postmodern world by a strong demand for personal freedom and autonomy and conscience combined with a powerful skeptical assualt on all forms of authority and on worldviews which try to claim superiority or absolutism in terms of holding final and complete truth.

 

[An_Agnostic]

Good rant, but are you, or want to be thought of as an honorable man of integrity? I ask because regardless of belief system the only people who like/tolerate lying cheating theives are other lying cheating thieves.

I don’t know you, but I imagine many who read it saw some of themself to a degree as I did. Lots of cross roads where you are now. I have liked every age I have ever been, but I wouldn’t go back to your age for anything. The next birthday is always the best one I ever had. Good Luck.

A suggestion and :twocents: .
If she accepts their funding her school/life she has an obligation to them; you should encourage in her the kind of fidelity you want for yourself from her, if she is obligated to you.

Respect her parents and encourage your girlfriend to listen to them over you until she is on her own as they have long planned for her; and you work yourself in around that. Yea, you lose now, but suck it up and be an honorable man in this until she graduates. It always pays off in the long run. Her parents will love you if you do that… then your only challenge will be keeping your girlfriends interest over the next 2-3 years.

If you are thinking of getting married; willingly accept it now that you will marry in the Church for her parents sake that now love you because you love their daughter…but best to wait till you are about 28, so don’t hurry.

Being friendly with all inlaws has many more benfits than not being friendly with them.

I have a hard time thinking they will accept me - under any circumstances.

I would like to make every one happy, but I know that isn’t possible. I would not override my GF’s interest in favor of her parent’s just to satisfy thier beliefs. My primary concern is keeping my GF happy. If living apart does not make her happy, then we will live together, as we do. If the opposite was true, it would be done.

If she wishes to marry in the Church, so be it.

 

[Greg27]

For the devout Catholic, or the devout member of any of the world’s great religions, the postmodern situation and its demands of total absolute personal freedom and autonomy as well as its rebellion against traditional forms of morality and authority, presents a very deep challenge to their sense of personal identity and continuity. If we look at the conservative and fundamentalist backlashes against modernity in all the world’s religions, the major driving emotional factor seems to be fear.

For some people, religion and the sacred is the only way they know how to effectively cope with fundamental existential challenges people face such as birth, suffering, sickness, evil, injustice and death. The Catholic religion in many ways offers a very rich and holistic approach to life’s fundamental existential questions, as well as moral and ethical codes which help resolve difficult or uncertain questions. The Church’s teaching authority and office also for many members of the Catholic faith, offers a welcoming clarity to the often chaotic and confusing uncertainty of the postmodern pluralistic world, and also checks the excesses of selfishness which blindly following one’s desires in the name of freedom can lead to.

If this sense of the sacred is threatened or challenged in any way however, to a person who holds these views, it can seem like a direct assault on them and their very being. The reaction is often visceral fear, followed by rage and anger, which are translated into attempts to control the situation or change it so the threat to themselves is removed.

In your own case, clearly there is a fear on the behalf of this girl’s parents that her salvation will be lost, her morals will be corrupted, and their own Catholic identity will be threatened as a result. The fundamental reactions and actions here are clearly based on fear, which in turn is based by a series of challenges to their view of reality and life by your own beliefs, the developing beliefs of their daughter, and the beliefs of a pluralistic, secular society in which they live.

I agree with you at a certain point children, as adults, need independence from their families but at the same time, we can’t choose our families and if you and this girl are going to have a defacto relationship or marry, you are going to need to find a way of having a decent relationship with her family. You will need to as a couple, do what you can to alleviate their fears and if the fears of her parents and their concerns are addressed in a reasonable, rational manner, that will in my view do a lot to reduce the tension and conflict in the equation. You might not be able to perfectly allay every fear or square your own views with theirs, but we have to learn that not everyone in this world shares our views and difference can lead to conflict if we don’t try to understand why people believe what they do and on what basis they believe what they do, and give them some freedom and room to live and express their beliefs. Very often the most extreme actions and viewpoints in people, particularly in religious fundamentalism or extreme conservatism, occur when they feel in danger that their way of life and system of beliefs is in danger of collapse and annihalation, while the most reasonable and balanced of people are those who feel sturdy, secure and strong in their beliefs, but who at the same time are open to different perspectives.

 

[An_Agnostic]

For the devout Catholic, or the devout member of any of the world’s great religions, the postmodern situation and its demands of total absolute personal freedom and autonomy as well as its rebellion against traditional forms of morality and authority, presents a very deep challenge to their sense of personal identity and continuity. If we look at the conservative and fundamentalist backlashes against modernity in all the world’s religions, the major driving emotional factor seems to be fear.

For some people, religion and the sacred is the only way they know how to effectively cope with fundamental existential challenges people face such as birth, suffering, sickness, evil, injustice and death. The Catholic religion in many ways offers a very rich and holistic approach to life’s fundamental existential questions, as well as moral and ethical codes which help resolve difficult or uncertain questions. The Church’s teaching authority and office also for many members of the Catholic faith, offers a welcoming clarity to the often chaotic and confusing uncertainty of the postmodern pluralistic world, and also checks the excesses of selfishness which blindly following one’s desires in the name of freedom can lead to.

If this sense of the sacred is threatened or challenged in any way however, to a person who holds these views, it can seem like a direct assault on them and their very being. The reaction is often visceral fear, followed by rage and anger, which are translated into attempts to control the situation or change it so the threat to themselves is removed.

In your own case, clearly there is a fear on the behalf of this girl’s parents that her salvation will be lost, her morals will be corrupted, and their own Catholic identity will be threatened as a result. The fundamental reactions and actions here are clearly based on fear, which in turn is based by a series of challenges to their view of reality and life by your own beliefs, the developing beliefs of their daughter, and the beliefs of a pluralistic, secular society in which they live.

I agree with you at a certain point children, as adults, need independence from their families but at the same time, we can’t choose our families and if you and this girl are going to have a defacto relationship or marry, you are going to need to find a way of having a decent relationship with her family. You will need to as a couple, do what you can to alleviate their fears and if the fears of her parents and their concerns are addressed in a reasonable, rational manner, that will in my view do a lot to reduce the tension and conflict in the equation. You might not be able to perfectly allay every fear or square your own views with theirs, but we have to learn that not everyone in this world shares our views and difference can lead to conflict if we don’t try to understand why people believe what they do and on what basis they believe what they do, and give them some freedom and room to live and express their beliefs. Very often the most extreme actions and viewpoints in people, particularly in religious fundamentalism or extreme conservatism, occur when they feel in danger that their way of life and system of beliefs is in danger of collapse and annihalation, while the most reasonable and balanced of people are those who feel sturdy, secure and strong in their beliefs, but who at the same time are open to different perspectives.

Wow. Thank you for your well thought post(s). I would agree with most you have said, as it is a commonsense analysis of what is going on in the world around us, currently.

Fear is a huge driving force and motivation behind human behavior.

Again, I would like to make every one happy. If I could please my GF and her family, that would be great. Somehow I doubt that will happen. My GF’s interests are not the same as her family’s - she’s trying to develop her own identity in all this. I have proposed meeting with the family and further explaining who I am, my intentions, and our relationship as it stands. I hope to do this soon - but now is not the time according to my GF. They wish to speak to her directly and alone.

 

[blessedtoo]

You said there is a great comfort in knowing the world can throw nothing at you that can’t be explained by faith.

Correct. The great moral and ethical issues of the day such as cloning, stem cell research, pre-emptive war, poverty, abortion, marriage, etc. all find reasoned responses within the Catholic faith.

I have suggested this as a motivation under the drive for control.

How does that imply a drive for control? Control of what? I can control myself, perhaps. I can live my life as a witness and example of my faith. I can express my belief to those who are willing to engage in discussion. What does this have to do with control?

Things have an order - a feeling of control over your own life.

Actually, Catholic’s understand that the world is in a state of disorder, resulting from the fall of man. And I am not “in control” of my “life”. I can control how I respond to what happens during my time here on earth. But what happens to me? No, I am not in control. Nor do I wish to be.

Knowing what was, what is, and what’s to come is certainly comforting, if you are in line with it

We do not claim to know what is to come. Sometimes it is difficult to even know what is, while it is happening. And often hindsight is 20/20. May faith walk is not about seeking comfort. If I follow the example set by Christ, then being comforted is not my goal. He was certainly not comfortable! What we seek, as Catholics, is something that transcends comfort, which is fleeting. It may come to us through His grace, but it is not a goal. We are not looking to be pacified. He took pains to prepare us for the inevitable suffering and pain that accompanies devotion and love for Him. We are called to embrace it, just as He did.

It helps one live a life of purpose, rather than asking too many questions, well, as I do (and find it rather difficult at times).

As another poster pointed out, you are presenting a very tired and over-used (and very arrogant) assertion that only the non-religious are “thinking” people. As has been pointed out, very few of us find our way to the Church without questions. And the questions never cease. Agnostics, atheists, Buddhists, whatever: we are all human and we all question and seek. That does not stop simply because someone meets God. The difference is when I asked questions, I kept my heart and mind open for the answer. When I found it, and it made sense, I accepted. But there are always more questions. Some will never be answered in this lifetime. Is that uncomfortable? Not really. There are many, many things we will never know. Why should we expect all our questions about God to be answered right now?

How can one live life without some assumption that the grass will still be green tomorrow, the sky blue, or that we will still even be breathing? It must be easier to accept, than to inquire - as I’ve stated before. To those of faith, I’m sure this is seen as a sign of confusion - because every thing makes perfect sense to them already (with the exception of those burning questions stuck in the back of the head that must be suppressed in order to continue the discipline/rock-solid faith).

Don’t you see how condescending this statement is? Do you honestly think you are the only one (or others who revel in rationalism) who has ever had deep thoughts and questions? Do you know that St. Augustine, a doctor of the Catholic Church, is taught in all Philosophy classes? How about Aquinas? There is nothing new under the sun, no great earth-shattering question you or anyone else can imagine that has not been asked before. Are there answers to everything? Of course not. Do doctors understand everything about disease? Geologists understand the earth completely? Astronomers the skies? Those who expect religion to answer every question are foolish. Burning questions do not need to be surpressed either. Human arrogance may convince us that we CAN know the answer to all questions but this would be an exercise in futility.

As a Catholic, I am provided, by Christ through His Church, all the answers I need to walk with Him through this earthly existence and the map of the road to His Kingdom in Heaven.

 

[blessedtoo]

Which leads me to ask you this last question: Do you believe that there are multiple ways to God? This is what separates Eastern and Western religions. If you spoke to a swami, for example, God is within each of us - and your feeling of peace and joy is achieving a state in oneness with Him. A Hindu might tell you that he worships a certain deity, or multiple deities, and uses certain methods to achieve godliness (such as meditation/particular yogas) but they are all paths to the Ultimate Reality, thus has no use to actively convert others. Is it really necessary to say the Catholic was is the only right way, or Protestant, Islam, ______ (insert religious practice here)? Do you think part of God’s love for humanity is the idea that we may use different practices to become closer to Him?

I believe there are elements of truth in many religions. However, if you have a destination you wish to reach, you would follow the most explicit and unambiguous route on the map. What would be the point of taking detours which may get you lost? God has revealed Himself to creation through the person of Jesus Christ. There is no other faith that claims this. If I am sincerely seeking the truth of God, common sense dictates I would follow the one who not only makes the claim, but proves it through His word, His Church and His continuous interaction with His people.

 

[An_Agnostic]

Thank you for your well-thought out responses, blessedtoo.

How do you know the answers from the Church are correct? Perhaps this is final question. Human beings have a great knack at manipulating “God’s will” in to their own. Since much of the Bible is left to interpretation (as evident by the many branches of Christianity there are), who do you turn to for the answers you seek? I suppose somewhere in all of this, you have a filter (use your own best judgment) for your faith - rather than merely accepting what is told to you… whether in a book or by mouth.

There was a time when the Sun revolved around the Earth (and was flat) - common knowledge within the bounds of the Church at the time. A public declaration stating differently was heresy.

 

[Palladio]

Thank you for your well-thought out responses, blessedtoo.

How do you know the answers from the Church are correct? Perhaps this is final question. Human beings have a great knack at manipulating “God’s will” in to their own. Since much of the Bible is left to interpretation (as evident by the many branches of Christianity there are), who do you turn to for the answers you seek? I suppose somewhere in all of this, you have a filter (use your own best judgment) for your faith - rather than merely accepting what is told to you… whether in a book or by mouth.

There was a time when the Sun revolved around the Earth (and was flat) - common knowledge within the bounds of the Church at the time. A public declaration stating differently was heresy.

See, this is one reason I would–still-suggest calling upon a priest, or looking at the Cathechism of the Catholic Church.

It is not hard to see why Catholics hold to the RCC as the one true holy and apostolic church, once you look into the New Testament and Church History.

Best of luck and God bless.

 

[blessedtoo]

How do you know the answers from the Church are correct? Perhaps this is final question. Human beings have a great knack at manipulating “God’s will” in to their own.

I believe in the historical and Scriptural Christ. I believe He built His Church upon the rock of Peter, the first Pope. I believe that every Pope in Catholic history has descended from Peter. I believe that Christ promised the “gates of hell would not prevail against His Church.” There have certainly been Popes with less than stellar reputations, but none of them have ever taught in error on the matters of faith and morals. The Church is protected by the promise of her founder, Jesus Christ.

Since much of the Bible is left to interpretation (as evident by the many branches of Christianity there are), who do you turn to for the answers you seek? I suppose somewhere in all of this, you have a filter (use your own best judgment) for your faith - rather than merely accepting what is told to you… whether in a book or by mouth.

The church has no “official” interpretation of Scripture. As Catholics, we have great freedom to cull from the Word of God that which is in accordance with Catholic Tradition. Other faiths that lack the coherence of 2,000 years of Tradition and uninterupted papal succession are often left with nothing more than their own personal opinion as the final arbiter of “truth”. Hence we see Scriptural innovations such as what is happening with the Episcopal and Luteran denominations.

There was a time when the Sun revolved around the Earth (and was flat) - common knowledge within the bounds of the Church at the time. A public declaration stating differently was heresy

If you wish to read about the Galileo controversy, you can start here

Even so, Galileo would not have been in so much trouble if he had chosen to stay within the realm of science and out of the realm of theology. But, despite his friends’ warnings, he insisted on moving the debate onto theological grounds.

In 1614, Galileo felt compelled to answer the charge that this “new science” was contrary to certain Scripture passages.

catholic.com/library/galileo_controversy.asp