Judging Others & Appearances

[fhansen]

You might be surprised at the similarities between the Catholic and Lutheran points of view.

As I understand it, both Catholics and Lutherans believe that justification itself is through faith alone, and that is sufficient. However, Catholics especially emphasize, and Lutherans agree, that a change in life resulting from faith is inevitable. And such a change will show itself in the form of works.

This makes sense. Let’s review James 2:
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 if a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17 so also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

Notice what verse 17 says. It says without works, the faith is dead. If the faith is dead, then it isn’t only works but faith also that is lacking – and therefore leads to lack of justification. I think the gist of it, is that to tell someone to go eat well is not faith. It’s just running off at the mouth. A faithful person will take action someone in need rather than just mouth wishes for them. Jesus was a man of action and words both.

Also I read that faith – being abstract and not directly observable – can only be known to anybody other than the person who claims to have the faith, through works. And works can be verbal; for example a kind word to comfort someone who is grieving, is a work of mercy and therefore a “work.”

Other opinions are, of course, welcome. My main source for this is the “JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION, by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church,” from the Vatican website.

4.3 Justification by Faith and through Grace

25.We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. By the action of the Holy Spirit in baptism, they are granted the gift of salvation, which lays the basis for the whole Christian life. They place their trust in God’s gracious promise by justifying faith, which includes hope in God and love for him. Such a faith is active in love and thus the Christian cannot and should not remain without works. But whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it.

26.According to Lutheran understanding, God justifies sinners in faith alone (sola fide). In faith they place their trust wholly in their Creator and Redeemer and thus live in communion with him. God himself effects faith as he brings forth such trust by his creative word. Because God’s act is a new creation, it affects all dimensions of the person and leads to a life in hope and love. In the doctrine of “justification by faith alone,” a distinction but not a separation is made between justification itself and the renewal of one’s way of life that necessarily follows from justification and without which faith does not exist. Thereby the basis is indicated from which the renewal of life proceeds, for it comes forth from the love of God imparted to the person in justification. Justification and renewal are joined in Christ, who is present in faith.

27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For without faith, no justification can take place. Persons are justified through baptism as hearers of the word and believers in it. The justification of sinners is forgiveness of sins and being made righteous by justifying grace, which makes us children of God. In justification the righteous receive from Christ faith, hope, and love and are thereby taken into communion with him.[14] This new personal relation to God is grounded totally on God’s graciousness and remains constantly dependent on the salvific and creative working of this gracious God, who remains true to himself, so that one can rely upon him. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession to which one could appeal over against God. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying grace, this renewal in faith, hope, and love is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and contributes nothing to justification about which one could boast before God (Rom 3:27). [See Sources for section 4.3].

I think the main difference lies in the fact that Catholics would agree with the following statement while Luther’s could not:
"Without love faith can indeed exist, but can be of no avail". St Augustine

 

[friardchips]

In response to the above posts: in simple terms, where does the Catholic understanding leave: atheists who do good works; people who have not had a chance to experience the knowledge of Christ and have died before-hand; children over the age of reason but still too young to have experienced suffering and so responded to messages of faith in a deeper way, and died before conversion; the comparison between old people who may have come to faith after a life of turning away and people who were younger with less time to convert in their life and died without faith; what about disabled people who can’t speak or express themselves in such a way that they could choose baptism; how does it explain that good works - if no Godly merit is to be found in charitable works outside Christianity - can bring atheists to God eventually? For if charity brings people to God outside of faith then there must be spiritual merit in those works - it is said that a person cannot sin when doing true acts of charity; also, if one has faith then one is culpable more so and deserving of punishment than those who have no knowledge of Christ. I could see that one could say that charity with no faith only serves bodily needs. It could be argued that to do charity towards ones neighbour is something from God already for the very fact that all creation has come through Christ and only God is good (as Jesus said).

Maybe the difference is that Christians have Christ to intercede for our sins. Those who do not recognise Christ do not have this and so are due full punishment? Not that this explanation answers all of the above.

As a Roman Catholic I do acknowledge that faith is complicit however, in helping us achieve salvation, and yet my response would be that what we understand of grace may be severely limited? And if we pigeon-hole God then we are underestimating His mercy and justice. If we think we know how much God loves then think again because His love is infinite and not something that can be fathomed in its fullness. even for an instance.

And so I think this reasoning explains why it has been quoted in a previous post that some who would have welcomed baptism but died before conversion can be saved. People who are open to love can be saved for God is love. If God is love then love in its purest form here is something transcendent. I think that this is why Jesus put so much emphasis on love by good works as St. James is quoted as doing above.

One last point, on the cross, Jesus said “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do”.

Jesus did give the keys of the kingdom to Peter and what the Church says stands.

What I am asking is what does it say in a simple way that I can and others coming to this forum can understand in plain terms - Christians, atheists, Lutherans, Moslems, lapsed Catholics alike?

 

[friardchips]

In response to the above quotes by Saints, I’d ask then that if there is love to be found in faith then maybe there is faith to be found in love?

 

[fhansen]

In response to the above quotes by Saints, I’d ask then that if there is love to be found in faith then maybe there is faith to be found in love?

The Church actually teaches that faith and hope can exist without love but that love always encompasses the other two.

 

[friardchips]

The Church actually teaches that faith and hope can exist without love but that love always encompasses the other two.

And what the R.C Church teaches is to be held in reverence and I agree with the above. And I have written the URL for the Vatican stance in such matters.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a1.htm

I think I’ll stop here and may even get my longer post taken down because this line of thinking can lead to spiritual blindness.

The first commandment holds all the other commandments in being. And to elevate people, things, security and temporal goods, anything above or in the place of God, in one’s life, is idolatry.

To believe, as little children trust, is what allows us into God’s Kingdom. And curiosity has sometimes been known to kill the cat!

As ready posted earlier - the three theological virtues are needed.

As for people who aren’t Christians being saved or in the cases above, which I was asking: that is in God’s hands. And if the Pope says that they can officially then they can and if not then not.

**Jesus gave the keys of His Kingdom to Peter so what the Church says stands. **

 

[friardchips]

The Church actually teaches that faith and hope can exist without love but that love always encompasses the other two.

So, in other words, faith and hope are inextricably entwined. Hope in love can lead to faith in God. But faith in God only deepens and hope in love is only realized through the reciprocation / gratitude to God, for the faith that one has received - expressed in charity, toward Him and neighbour. In that way one is mirroring God’s love with continued faith, hope, and charity. As our Lady did. As Jesus said, a light is not to be put under the table.

To quote Mother Theresa: ‘The fruit of Silence is prayer. The fruit of Prayer is faith. The fruit of Faith is love. The fruit of Love is service. The fruit of Service is peace.’

I would add that fruit is to be picked when ripe lest it fall on the ground and decay.