Judging Others

[LostChemist]

So, after a few days of reading different threads here on CAF I have been confused with certain aspects of Catholic beliefs. So, I understand that the Church’s stance on topics such as contraceptives and gay marriage. However, I also thought that the Bible teaches us to not judge others. So, while the Church formally doesn’t support it, and we shouldn’t participate in it, why do so many Catholics hate the idea of other people doing it? In particular, there was a post concerning Nancy Polosi stating that she supports gay marriage because her faith tells her that discrimination is wrong. I thought that this made sense. She is basically stating that she isn’t going to judge others that want to make the decision even though she wouldn’t do it herself. I don’t know if this falls under the lines of hypocrisy or not, so I wanted to open it up for discussion. What do you all think?

Also, other examples are more than welcome. I only bring up contraceptives and gay marriage because it’s the hot topic right now. My question sums up to this: couldn’t we support others in their beliefs (or rather not be vehemently opposed to them) while still maintaining our own?

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

So, after a few days of reading different threads here on CAF I have been confused with certain aspects of Catholic beliefs. So, I understand that the Church’s stance on topics such as contraceptives and gay marriage. However, I also thought that the Bible teaches us to not judge others. So, while the Church formally doesn’t support it, and we shouldn’t participate in it, why do so many Catholics hate the idea of other people doing it? In particular, there was a post concerning Nancy Polosi stating that she supports gay marriage because her faith tells her that discrimination is wrong. I thought that this made sense. She is basically stating that she isn’t going to judge others that want to make the decision even though she wouldn’t do it herself. I don’t know if this falls under the lines of hypocrisy or not, so I wanted to open it up for discussion. What do you all think?

Also, other examples are more than welcome. I only bring up contraceptives and gay marriage because it’s the hot topic right now. My question sums up to this: couldn’t we support others in their beliefs (or rather not be vehemently opposed to them) while still maintaining our own?

Let’s exaggerate a lot.
Suppose that Hitler is running for President on the basis of killing all Jews.
Is it all right for me to judge him?

The answer is clear.
I do not know when it comes to sex lives the waters get murky…

 

[Dymphna82]

Wow, I leave one thread where someone criticizes my post, to find an entire thread, dedicated to criticizing my post. You win, internets.

disconnects

 

[bscastro]

Also, other examples are more than welcome. I only bring up contraceptives and gay marriage because it’s the hot topic right now. My question sums up to this: couldn’t we support others in their beliefs (or rather not be vehemently opposed to them) while still maintaining our own?

We should support their right to have different beliefs, but if we believe something is wrong (e.g. abortion, contraceptives, homosexual acts) we are remiss to fail to speak against it.

In the cases of abortion, contraceptives, and homosexual acts, Catholics believe they are mortal sins - sins that can potentially endanger our souls to eternal damnation. To not speak out against them is not a charitable act if we believe in Heaven and Hell and the eternal life of the soul. We should do so with compassion, and yes, we should always work on our own moral life and our own salvation, but part of loving our neighbor is admonishing the sinner.

I know I’m a sinner. I have many faults to work on myself, but if we just let people walk down the road to perdition without trying to divert them, that itself is a sin of omission.

In Christ,
Bryan

 

[wardrandolph]

I realy believe some do not understand what "Charity"realy means.Love the sinner,hate the sin.Is it charatible to allow someone to continue in grave sin,knowing they could end up in Hell because we don’t want to offend?How is this showing I love you?Our Faith does not teach that we are to put our stamp of approval on anything or anyone that promotes ideas,lifestyles etc.contrary to its teaching.This would cause great scandal to the individual or group.Judgeing “the act”(Homosexuality,Adultry,Murder,Abortion etc)is not the same as judgeing the individual.People tend to use the accusation that we are judgemental if we do not condone the choices they make.Some believe “Truth is subjective”.The truth does not depend on how I feel about something but rather on what Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition teaches.Nancy Felosi does not represent the teachings of the Church but rather the teachings of a secular,polictical correctness teachings of someone who is trying to appeal to everyone to keep her job.

 

[cessnawag]

When I tell my child to stop doing something bad I do it because I love him. I know it could be harmful and lead to unhappiness. Loving christians are the same way, they have researched he way god thinks and don’t like to see a fellow child of god go astray. So christians are motivated by love to help others.

 

[bscastro]

After writing my first post, I went on Facebook and found a few of my relatives supporting the gay marriage issue and trashing the Bible and talking about the Golden Rule and other stuff that misrepresents sin and God…

and I feel so weak as I’m afraid of the family backlash if I say something. However, considering my first post which is what I believe, I feel I should respond some way. Should I just say what I think and bear the consequences with a clear conscience, or “let it be”?

Also, as a clarification, I think there is a difference between judging and between admonishing. The main difference I think may hold a key to my response - the recognition of our own sin as well as our lack-of authority to judge - which is reserved for God alone.

I pray that the Lord give me guidance and strength.

In Christ,
Bryan

 

[1ke]

So, after a few days of reading different threads here on CAF I have been confused with certain aspects of Catholic beliefs. So, I understand that the Church’s stance on topics such as contraceptives and gay marriage. However, I also thought that the Bible teaches us to not judge others. So, while the Church formally doesn’t support it, and we shouldn’t participate in it, why do so many Catholics hate the idea of other people doing it? In particular, there was a post concerning Nancy Polosi stating that she supports gay marriage because her faith tells her that discrimination is wrong. I thought that this made sense. She is basically stating that she isn’t going to judge others that want to make the decision even though she wouldn’t do it herself. I don’t know if this falls under the lines of hypocrisy or not, so I wanted to open it up for discussion. What do you all think?

Also, other examples are more than welcome. I only bring up contraceptives and gay marriage because it’s the hot topic right now. My question sums up to this: couldn’t we support others in their beliefs (or rather not be vehemently opposed to them) while still maintaining our own?

You misunderstand judging.

Judging others has to do with judging their hearts, which only God can do. No one here can know if the people you mention are in mortal sin or not. We do not know their mind, heart, or soul. We do not know if they have been to confession, etc.

HOWEVER, we can certainly make judgments regarding behavior that goes against God’s moral law. In fact, we are CALLED to fraternal correction-- rebuking our brothers and sisters in Christ who are committing actions that are gravely wrong.

We cannot judge their souls. We certainly can, and should, make judgments regarding their actions, correct them when they are wrong, and speak out against public figures who are creating scandal-- itself a grave sin-- by supporting objectively immoral actions.

We can never do evil, nor cooperate with it.

 

[Leo13_Pius10]

There are two ways of viewing a persons act.

The first to look at the objective rightness or wrongness of the act. Divine revelation held by the traditions of the church combined with the natural law which St Paul describes as ‘being written in our hearts’ for the most part tells us quite readily whether an action is objectively evil.

For instance, if I were to tell you that a man had gone and killed his father for gain, you would be able to discern this as an evil act in the objective sense.

The second way of looking at an act is with the knowledge of God. That is to know every single circumstance and excuse no matter what it might be.

So it might be that the man mentioned previously suffers from a severe undiagnosed mental illness where he has no control over what he is doing at certain peroids thus absolving him from culpability.

The reason that God tells us not to judge is because we do not know men’s hearts like God so we cannot truly judge a man. However, this does not extend to the concept of judging an action. For instance St Paul in one of his epistles talks about how no fornicators will enter the kingdom of heaven. In this instance he is refering to the evil of the act rather than predicting a specific man’s ultimate fate in his eternal life or the state of his soul.

Christian charity calls us to always assume the best in people and to make excuses for their actions as we would like to do for ours. This is especially the case when we are listening or participating in needless gossip which objectively is a great sin against charity.

However, when we are in a position of authority or someone’s objectively evil acts are causing scandal(not the secular meaning, but the traditional meaning of literally causing another to sin) we must strive in the greatest of charity to correct them or to prevent them from causing the scandal. As Christ says, it would be better for a person to tie a milstone around their neck and cast themselves into the ocean than to cause scandal to a little one.

Even in this we should retain limit ourselves to objective facts. For instance I believe it would be a sin against charity for me to say that Nancy Pelosi is going to hell and I would be calling judgment down upon myself to say such things. If I were then to say that Nancy Pelosi objectively is promoting a sinful lifestyle and that if she is culpable and dies unrepentant she will most likely face eternal hellfire as Christ says will happen to those that cause others to greviously sin, and this statement was out of a real desire to instruct against the public scandal that she is causing, then this would be true charity. For me to remain silent and let her continue her destructive scandal would be a sin against true charity.

In summary, it is important not to forget that Christ taught an absolute unsubjective morality. In his admonishment to not judge he was not saying that we should discard this morality or look at it in a relativistic light, but rather except our limitations in being able to see the true state of someones soul. If this is because we are called to imitate Christ’s charity then we should examine the actions of Christ when he was faced with immorality and whilst doing so also except that we must revise his actions to some degree as we do not have his divine knowledge of a mans heart. I suggest that you count the number of times that Christ forgives someone who repents to him their sins and then says ‘Go away sin no more’.

I will leave the last word to the greatest pope of all St Peter himself.

Acts 8:14-25

Now, when the apostles, who were in Jerusalem, had heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John.

Who, when they had come, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost. For he was not as yet come upon any of them: but they were only baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands upon them: and they received the Holy Ghost.

And when Simon saw that, by the imposition of the hands of the apostles, the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, saying: Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I shall lay my hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

But Peter said to him: Keep your money to yourself, to perish with you: because you have thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. You have no part nor lot in this matter. For your heart is not right in the sight of God. Do penance therefore for this your wickedness: and pray to God, that perhaps this thought of your heart may be forgiven you.

For I see you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity. Then Simon answering, said: Pray you for me to the Lord that none of these things which you have spoken may come upon me. And they indeed, having testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem: and preached the gospel to many countries of the Samaritans.

Ezeckiel 3:16-19 also makes for an interesting read

And at the end of seven days the word of the Lord came to me, saying:

Son of man, I have made thee a watchman to the house of Israel: and thou shalt hear the word out of my mouth, and shalt tell it them from me.

If, when I say to the wicked, Thou shalt surely die: thou declare it not to him, nor speak to him, that he may be converted from his wicked way, and live: the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but I will require his blood at thy hand.

But if thou give warning to the wicked, and he be not converted from his wickedness, and from his evil way: he indeed shall die in his iniquity, but thou hast delivered thy soul.

 

[mary_bobo]

We should support their right to have different beliefs, but if we believe something is wrong (e.g. abortion, contraceptives, homosexual acts) we are remiss to fail to speak against it. It is not that we think it is wrong, it is that the Church has told us so. In this day of poor information on our faith, it is imcumbent on us to say that the Church does not agree with the different beliefs theory. We are not free to disagree with the Church where she has pronounced on faith and morals.

In the cases of abortion, contraceptives, and homosexual acts, Catholics believe they are mortal sins - sins that can potentially endanger our souls to eternal damnation. To not speak out against them is not a charitable act if we believe in Heaven and Hell and the eternal life of the soul. We should do so with compassion, and yes, we should always work on our own moral life and our own salvation, but part of loving our neighbor is admonishing the sinner.

I know I’m a sinner. I have many faults to work on myself, but if we just let people walk down the road to perdition without trying to divert them, that itself is a sin of omission.

In Christ,
Bryan

To fail to correct the actions and pronouncements of those who publicly differ with the Church is to allow the Church to be held up to ridicule. We are not to judge others, to be sure, but to remain silent when they say things that are not true, I think we have an obligation to point this out.

 

[Bookcat]

Be sure to read the whole…not just the blue.

““Being concerned for each other” also entails being concerned for their spiritual well-being. Here I would like to mention an aspect of the Christian life, which I believe has been quite forgotten: fraternal correction in view of eternal salvation. Today, in general, we are very sensitive to the idea of charity and caring about the physical and material well-being of others, but almost completely silent about our spiritual responsibility towards our brothers and sisters. This was not the case in the early Church or in those communities that are truly mature in faith, those which are concerned not only for the physical health of their brothers and sisters, but also for their spiritual health and ultimate destiny. The Scriptures tell us: “Rebuke the wise and he will love you for it. Be open with the wise, he grows wiser still, teach the upright, he will gain yet more” (Prov 9:8ff). Christ himself commands us to admonish a brother who is committing a sin (cf. Mt 18:15). The verb used to express fraternal correction - elenchein – is the same used to indicate the prophetic mission of Christians to speak out against a generation indulging in evil (cf. Eph 5:11). The Church’s tradition has included “admonishing sinners” among the spiritual works of mercy. It is important to recover this dimension of Christian charity. We must not remain silent before evil. I am thinking of all those Christians who, out of human regard or purely personal convenience, adapt to the prevailing mentality, rather than warning their brothers and sisters against ways of thinking and acting that are contrary to the truth and that do not follow the path of goodness. Christian admonishment, for its part, is never motivated by a spirit of accusation or recrimination. It is always moved by love and mercy, and springs from genuine concern for the good of the other. As the Apostle Paul says: “If one of you is caught doing something wrong, those of you who are spiritual should set that person right in a spirit of gentleness; and watch yourselves that you are not put to the test in the same way” (Gal 6:1). In a world pervaded by individualism, it is essential to rediscover the importance of fraternal correction, so that together we may journey towards holiness. Scripture tells us that even “the upright falls seven times” (Prov 24:16); all of us are weak and imperfect (cf. 1 Jn 1:8). It is a great service, then, to help others and allow them to help us, so that we can be open to the whole truth about ourselves, improve our lives and walk more uprightly in the Lord’s ways. There will always be a need for a gaze which loves and admonishes, which knows and understands, which discerns and forgives (cf. Lk 22:61), as God has done and continues to do with each of us.”

–Pope Benedict XVI from message for Lent 2012

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/lent/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20111103_lent-2012_en.html

 

[Bookcat]

Fraternal correction is not “judging”.

Very informative:

blog.adw.org/2010/06/correcting-the-sinner-is-not-being-judgmental-it-is-an-essential-work-of-charity/

blog.adw.org/2009/11/fraternal-correction-the-forgotten-virtue/

(I will note though that some here struggle with scruples and thus have difficulty distinguishing between what is sin and what is not etc…in which case they may need to seek the direction of their regular confessor…for they may not yet be in a good spot to be giving many such “fraternal corrections”)

Nor by the way is noting that such and such is a grave sin…an evil etc “judging” the person …it is judging the nature of the evil.

 

[Brendan]

More specifically ACTIONS can (and should) be judged. But actions are not people, and people are not actions.

So when we judge the appropriateness of an action (such as taking birth control, having an abotion, burning a cross in the front yard of a black family), we are not making a value judgement on the person, but on the action.

Does that make sense?

 

[livingwordunity]

Because of the culture of the time, “judging” in the Bible usually meant that the person would get stoned to death. It meant condemning a person. That’s the context of Jesus telling people to stop judging others. The Bible actually calls for us to judge others but with charity and not in a condemning way. It even goes so far as to say in the Bible that if we don’t correct our brother in their sin that we can be judged by God as being guilty of their sin along with them.

 

[Abu]

LostChemist #1
I also thought that the Bible teaches us to not judge others. So, while the Church formally doesn’t support it, and we shouldn’t participate in it, why do so many Catholics hate the idea of other people doing it?

We are most certainly to judge all actions, speech and writing against truth as taught by the Church in Her Sacred Scripture. How else would we or anyone else know what was right or what was wrong?

It is vital to follow the command to judge all actions, speech, writing against truth and in this way we can help others by offering truth.

Christ and His Church’s Scriptures tell us:

“Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly.” (Jn 7:24).

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them” (Mt 7:15, 16).

“Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.” (Mt 7:19-20).

“Test everything: retain what is good.” (1Thess 5:21).

“The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgement by anyone.” (1 Cor 2:15).

“I, for my part, although absent in body but present in spirit, have already, as if present, pronounced judgement on the one who has committed this deed…” (1 Cor 5:3; read 1-13).

“I am speaking as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I am saying.” (1 Cor 10:15).

“Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” (1 Jn 4:1).

“I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of my mouth.” (Rev 3:16).

We may not judge motives, intentions, and guilt before God but are commanded to judge actions, speech, writing against truth and in this way we can help others by offering truth.

In particular, there was a post concerning Nancy Polosi stating that she supports gay marriage because her faith tells her that discrimination is wrong. I thought that this made sense.

It makes no sense, it is nonsense, because there is no discrimination against anyone, simply the acknowledgement of the fact that, in truth, marriage can only be between one man and one woman. Her faith most certainly tells her that but she is a dissenter and dissent against doctrine on faith or morals is totally illicit.

We can’t judge according to truth by being mesmerized by others and giving them adulation, but according to the teaching of Christ’s Church, Her Tradition and Her Scriptures.

 

[LucyLight]

Wow, I leave one thread where someone criticizes my post, to find an entire thread, dedicated to criticizing my post. You win, internets.

disconnects

That’s frustrating. Maybe the OP could of sent you a pm instead:shrug:

Anyways, I heard a priest say that the correct interpretation of that passage was thou shall not condem instead of judge. Which made a lot of sense to me. However, that priest was Fr. Corapi so…I’m unsure about that now.