Jury duty and perspective

[Pug]

mkamoski:

…that’s is exactly what I have been quoting all along.

The fact is that EVERYTHING is God’s.

Yes, everything is God’s, but that is not all the quote is saying, which is why I quoted the whole of it. It also says, “Render to Caesar.” This is more than a statement that everything is God’s. The CCC mentions this scripture in paragraph 450 and sort of in 2242. Taken together, the two paragraphs do not have the flavor to me that we ought use optional religious matters to avoid our (morally decent obligatory) role in the political arena. Of course, if the government asks something morally wrong of us, we must never do it!

However, “Submission to legitimate authorities and service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community.” CCC2239

Are you saying that the US govenment has completely surrendered its claim to being a legitimate authority, to the point where it has no recognizeable authority over us and hence we can ignore anything the government would demand of us, rather than just ignoring the evil things it might demand of us?

I agree with so much that you say in your post to me. He died for us, and we should die to ourselves and live for Christ, and no longer for ourselves or for the flesh. Every moment should be for Christ (even when listening to some boring judge.)

 

[JimG]

Well, judging (that word again!) by the jury pools I’ve seen and the run of the mill cases–both civil and criminal–that people serve on, I can’t see where it would generally be a grave matter to skip jury duty. Anyway, you can’t just skip it, without giving the court some kind of excuse.

But if you had serious doubts about imposing the death penalty, for example, in a capital case, I think merely expressing those doubts would get you excused. (Which is, in a way, unfair to the defendant. Excusing those opposed to capital punishment ensures that he will get a jury favoring the death penalty.)

 

[stanley123]

JimG:

… Anyway, you can’t just skip it, without giving the court some kind of excuse.

There is a penalty for skipping jury duty and not giving any excuse. Some people might be willing to pay this penalty. On the other hand, if a person had a problem with jury duty, it might be better for them to just lay out their conscientious objection to the service.

 

[astralis]

Anyway, you can’t just skip it, without giving the court some kind of excuse.

Unless people lie. In Houston, the biggest lie people make to get off of jury duty is they never received the summons in the mail. Jury summons comes via regular mail. The city can’t afford to send certified mail. So, when people say they never received it, the city has absolutely no way to prove them otherwise. So, they just increase the pool and hope 2 percent show up.

I also found it bizarre that in Texas if you were against the death penalty, in a capital case, you were not allowed to be on a jury. That law just changed last month now that in capital cases, people have a chance for life in prison without parole. Thank you Jesus!

Everyone complains about being summoned for jury duty, but every day I hope I receive a summons in my mail box. I’ve never been summoned.

But, I think the original poster was spot on: tell them you’re a Christian and you’re 99 percent assured of not getting on a jury.

 

[pnewton]

astralis:

Unless people lie. In Houston, the biggest lie people make to get off of jury duty is they never received the summons in the mail.

Last month I exercised, for the first time, of declining by check the box that I have a young child under my care the I can not leave alone. I don’t know if they get many of these from guys, but in my case it is true.

In the past all my jury days have turned up on my work days. I just drive over from work and show up…in uniform. I have never been chosen.

 

[Rhubarb]

I don’t really know if this is an issue… I live in a really, really, really, really small town and I know of at least two Catholic churches in the area within twenty minutes driving time and at least one more within thirty. The two that are within the city limits have several Masses throughout the week at various times. I’d think that if you had jury duty, you’d still be able to make at least one of these Masses. So it seems to me if you skip Mass because you have jury duty, you’re really skipping Mass because you arn’t putting enough effort into getting there.

 

[mkamoski]

Pug–

Regarding this…

Pug:

However, “Submission to legitimate authorities and service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community.” CCC2239

…that is fine. We also should note that the Catechism also says…

CCC 2242 – The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to thos of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. “Render therefore to Caeser the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” [Mt. 22.21] We must obey God rather than men.

…which, as I read it, is pretty clear.

Now, again, one must ask oneself some interesting questions…

–Am I participating in a system that is contrary to the moral order?

–Am I participating in a system that is contrary to the fundamental rights of persons?

–Am I participating in a system that is contrary to the Gospel?

Let’s just pick the legalized direct-abortion issue.

Let’s face it-- the “justice system” of the United States is largely responsible for millions of deaths a year. Is that a system that is moral? Is that a system that is protecting the rights of the millions of babies? Is that system something upholding the Gospel?

Let’s look at a couple of instances where the Church teaches clearly about such matters.

Proximity to a sin is an issue. We see this with the Vatican’s automatic excommunication not only of those who have a direct-abortion but also those who participate in the abortion.

Futhermore, the Holy Father, has made it VERY clear on more than one instance that politicians who promulgate direct-abortion through their action or inaction are NOT to receive Holy Communiion.

I’d say those are 2 pretty significant situations.

Pug:

Are you saying that the US govenment has completely surrendered its claim to being a legitimate authority, to the point where it has no recognizeable authority over us and hence we can ignore anything the government would demand of us, rather than just ignoring the evil things it might demand of us?

No, I am NOT saying that. I am simply saying that one has make the right choice in such areas and, when doing so, one must give precendence to serving Jesus Christ’s laws over serving human laws. That’s all.

May the Lord give you his peace.

–Mark

 

[mlchance]

I can’t believe I just read a thread where someone is arguing the acceptability of using the Mass as an excuse to break the law regarding jury duty.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[geezerbob]

Excuse is right. It does not have to be either/or. It could easily be both. That which is Caesar’s is fulfilling your civic obligation to serve as a juror. Jesus said render it unto him. The use of daily mass attendance in an effort to not serve sounds to me like direct and willful disobedience of one of Christ’s commands.

 

[Benedictus]

–Am I participating in a system that is contrary to the moral order?

–Am I participating in a system that is contrary to the fundamental rights of persons?

–Am I participating in a system that is contrary to the Gospel?

Do you pay taxes? Did you know that in many places your tax dollars are used to fund abortions? Do you drive on highways constructed with funds that came from a immoral system? When you pay taxes or drive on a public road, you are participating in a system that is contrary to the Gospel.

 

[stanley123]

Benedictus:

Do you pay taxes? Did you know that in many places your tax dollars are used to fund abortions? Do you drive on highways constructed with funds that came from a immoral system? When you pay taxes or drive on a public road, you are participating in a system that is contrary to the Gospel.

I think that there were cases of Catholic clergy who refused to pay (at least a part of) their taxes during the Vietnam war, and they accepted a jail sentence as punishment for this.

 

[Pug]

mkamoski:

We also should note that the Catechism also says…

CCC 2242 – The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel…

I mentioned that CCC paragraph in my post. Now, is jury duty a directive of the civil authority that is contrary to the moral order or Gospel? In general I don’t think so. I don’t think you do, either, because you allowed a person to voluntarily choose to serve. A directive (a mandatory draft) demanding combat service in an unjust war would come in direct conflict with this particular CCC paragraph. This paragraph is not saying that if the government in some portion somewhere is doing something incorrect that you may randomly disobey its correct directives in protest. Here is Vat 2 Gaudium et Spes, 74 (hand-typed may have a typo):

Citizens, then, are bound in conscience to obey…When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do whatever is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against abuses of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the law of the Gospel.

I think jury service, perhaps in the case of a robbery is an instance of the government or legal system doing a correct thing. It is in direct service of the public good. If you are asked to serve on a jury about abortion or something, that could seem entirely different to me, depending on how abortion relates to the case.

Public civil disobedience is a valid technique in some circumstances, on that I agree. Also, I do not dispute that if one believes jury duty to involve moral evil, then one ought not do it.

I find it horrific what is allowed in this country (abortion). Nonetheless, if the police want me to offer testimony about a robbery I witnessed, I would still do it, even though those are the same police who uphold our abortion laws. The government and police are still providing a massive service to the common good by existing, having laws, enforcing laws, providing national defense, etc. I will cooperate in the public good. Perhaps this makes me schizophrenic? Sometimes I feel it does. But I’m not convinced that it is more than a feeling.

 

[mkamoski]

mlchance–

God bless you.

Regarding this…

mlchance:

I can’t believe I just read a thread where someone is arguing the acceptability of using the Mass as an excuse to break the law regarding jury duty.

…that sounds as if it were spoken by a lawyer.

No one should use Mass as an excuse.

One should, however, know that attending Mass (or any other form of communion with Jesus Christ) is INFINITELY more important than ANYTHING else one can do.

“We must obey God rather than men.” CCC 2242

That law says, plainly and clearly-- Love the Lord with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul, all your being.

But, sure, if after doing that, you have time for something else, by all means-- have fun.

That’s all.

May the Lord give you his peace.

–Mark

 

[mkamoski]

geezerbob–

God bless you.

Regarding this…

geezerbob:

…The use of daily mass attendance in an effort to not serve sounds to me like direct and willful disobedience of one of Christ’s commands

…you have missed the point.

The point, as noted in the topic of the post, is one of PERSPECTIVE.

If one thinks it is better to go to jury duty than to receive the Holy Eucharist, (the Body, Blood, Soul, and Diviity of Jesus Christ, the one Lord and Savior), then that person would be sorely mistaken.

(BTW, I have already addressed the “render unto Ceasar” comment above, with quotes from the CCC, no less. In short, as you apparently missed it, the fact is-- Everything is God’s; so, there’s really not much left for Ceasar.)

May the Lord give you his peace.

–Mark

 

[mkamoski]

Benedictus:

Do you pay taxes? Did you know that in many places your tax dollars are used to fund abortions? Do you drive on highways constructed with funds that came from a immoral system? When you pay taxes or drive on a public road, you are participating in a system that is contrary to the Gospel.

Right.

That’s precisely my point.

It is shame that is the way of the world.

The only hope is in Jesus Christ.

Focus on him and him alone.

Everything else, EVERYTHING, is a minor detail.

May the Lord give you his peace.

–Mark

 

[mkamoski]

stanley123:

I think that there were cases of Catholic clergy who refused to pay (at least a part of) their taxes during the Vietnam war, and they accepted a jail sentence as punishment for this.

God bless them!

They are the true heroes.

I am sure Christ smiled that day.

May the Lord give you his peace.

–Mark

 

[mlchance]

mkamoski:

No one should use Mass as an excuse.

Exactly. So now that we’re in agreement, go to jury duty when your called like you’re supposed to.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[JimG]

stanley123:

I think that there were cases of Catholic clergy who refused to pay (at least a part of) their taxes during the Vietnam war, and they accepted a jail sentence as punishment for this.

That would be the Berrigan Brothers. They were willing to accept the consequences of their civil disobedience. But I wonder if they ever apologized to the millions of innocent victims of Ho Chi Minh and Pol Pot resulting from U.S. withdrawal from Vietnam, partly as a result of their actions.

 

[mkamoski]

mlchance–

God bless you.

Regarding this…

mlchance:

Exactly. So now that we’re in agreement, go to jury duty when your called like you’re supposed to

…you are partially correct is saying that we are in agreement.

We do agree that Mass should not be used as an excuse.

However, what I am saying is-- given the choice to serve the Lord or to serve jury duty, one MUST serve the Lord, without hesitation. Therefore, one should only be concerned about attending jury duty if one has nothing better to do. We know that serving the Lord is INFINITELY more important that serving human law; so, it is unlikely that serving jury duty should be a priority.

The Holy Father Pope John Paul II, (may God bless his soul), said the following at the cannonization of St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross (Edith Stein), in 1987

“Your life is not an endless series of open doors! Listen to your heart! Do not stay on the surface but go to the heart of things! And when the time is right, have the courage to decide! The Lord is waiting for you to put your freedom in his good hands.”

Life is not an endless series of open doors!!!

We make many choices each day and we would all do well to make the RIGHT choice.

–Is what I am doing right now serving the Lord? Am I here out of obligation to the Lord? Is this the best use of my time?

St. Theresa, (may she interceed for us), is today’s patron Saint. She died for what she believed. She felt it was an honor to do what she MUST. To give until it hurt. To keep giving as long as Christ keeps giving.

If one really has nothing better to do than go to jury duty, then by all means go. However, if one has opportunity to serve the Lord rather than go to jury duty, then one should do that.

Martha learned this lesson, as Mary choose “the better part”-- listening at the feet of Jesus Christ, our Lord God and Savior.

Choose the better part.

May the Lord give you his peace.

–Mark

 

[mkamoski]

JimG–

God bless you.

Regarding this…

JimG:

That would be the Berrigan Brothers. They were willing to accept the consequences of their civil disobedience. But I wonder if they ever apologized to the millions of innocent victims of Ho Chi Minh and Pol Pot resulting from U.S. withdrawal from Vietnam, partly as a result of their actions.

…it looks that that is at least a weak argument, specious at best.

Evil comes from the choice of humankind to turn from the Lord.

A few errant taxpayers did not sway the day in that war.

Prayers, sacrifice, and the hope that all will turn to the Lord-- those are matters that change the course of pigrimmage of the Church Militant.

May the Lord give you his peace.

–Mark