Just a question...

[timeandeternity]

It is possible to kill legitimately in defense, or to kill unintentionally. Neither would be murder.

Thanks chipeto! Good catch

 

[thistle]

"This seems like mixing apples and oranges, but perhaps I just don’t understand where you are going. The USSR’s purges were morally equivilent to our governments’ permission of mass abortion. The Church certainly did not approve of Stalin’s purges.

The Church is not concerned about hindering the state, but in unleashing civil discord which has a bad tendency to widen and spread harm among the people. Especially since there clearly are not enough Catholics to change the policy, the result would likely be the punishment or destruction of the Church itself. The Church is not morally bound to encourage violent action that will result in her own destruction."

What I meant was that if the Church is worried about civil disturbances which endanger the very good of the state, then it shouldn’t be concerned with anti-abortion violence since the violence done by stalin wasn’t even enough to destroy russia.

But my next question: so the Church doesn’t want us to forcefully stop abortions because it believes that it will be destroyed?

To Warrenton: “The Catholic teaching is a bit more restrictive than that.”

I’ve never heard of it being more restrictive. What is the teaching then?

You still haven’t responded to my question. What do you mean by “forcefully stop abortions”??
Does that mean killing the doctors and nurses?
Does it mean killing the mother which has the consequence of killing the unborn child you want to save?
Are you going to kidnap the mother and imprison her to force her to give birth?

 

[Infiltrator]

This is not correct. There is never a time it is permissible to intentionally take another’s life. As Catholics we are called to live a Christlike life. You tell me, how many people did Christ kill in his life? I’m not talking Old Testament, that is what Jesus came here to correct, out interpretation of it, but how many times did Jesus kill?

None. That is because killing is a sin and Jesus is without sin.

I agree with everything you say, and thank you for saying it better than I did, except for the above, where I must nitpick. It is possible to kill legitimately in defense, or to kill unintentionally. Neither would be murder.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

You still haven’t responded to my question. What do you mean by “forcefully stop abortions”??
Does that mean killing the doctors and nurses?
Does it mean killing the mother which has the consequence of killing the unborn child you want to save?
Are you going to kidnap the mother and imprison her to force her to give birth?

You could cut the power lines into an abortion clinic. That would delay and possibly stop about a day’s worth of abortions without inflicting any personal harm on anyone - just a little property damage. That can be considered “forcefully stop”.

 

[thistle]

You could cut the power lines into an abortion clinic. That would delay and possibly stop about a day’s worth of abortions without inflicting any personal harm on anyone - just a little property damage. That can be considered “forcefully stop”.

Not practical. Persuading the mothers not to have an abortion is the key. If you shut down one clinic those seeking an abortion will simply go elsewhere.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Not practical. Persuading the mothers not to have an abortion is the key. If you shut down one clinic those seeking an abortion will simply go elsewhere.

I wasn’t proposing it as a solution. I was just answering the question as to what one might mean by the term “forcibly stop” an abortion. I agree that it is not the beneficial thing to do. But the main question in this thread has been what is moral under Catholic teaching. If it is immoral to cut the power to an abortion clinic then it would also be immoral to picket the entrance, the only difference being that one is illegal while the other is legal (usually). Both actions disrupt the operations there. In both cases the women might simply go elsewhere. But some of them will have second thoughts and perhaps not go elsewhere for an abortion.

 

[chipeto]

This is not correct. There is never a time it is permissible to intentionally take another’s life. As Catholics we are called to live a Christlike life. You tell me, how many people did Christ kill in his life? I’m not talking Old Testament, that is what Jesus came here to correct, out interpretation of it, but how many times did Jesus kill?

None. That is because killing is a sin and Jesus is without sin.

I’m not sure what you are actually disagreeing with. I agree that it is wrong to intentionally kill, but it is permissible to kill if the intention is defense. This can occur in situations of self-defense, war, and even execution.

CCC 2263

The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. “The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor. … The one is intended, the other is not.”

CCC 2264

… Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow…

CCC 2267

… the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor. …