Just war..

[Aragorn]

I heard on Catholic Relevant Radio last night a Dr. Mark Miraveilli (bad spelling) speaking on the Holy Father’s disapproval of the war in Iraq. I have a couple of questions: Is it sinful to support the war in Iraq, and, if so, why? I beleive that there are a myriad of sound reasons to support such action. However, I always will bend to the Church. So, is this an area of binding doctrine that the Holy See is proclaiming?

I am sure there has been a number of threads here, but I have not found any.

 

[space_ghost]

Aragorn:

I heard on Catholic Relevant Radio last night a Dr. Mark Miraveilli (bad spelling) speaking on the Holy Father’s disapproval of the war in Iraq. I have a couple of questions: Is it sinful to support the war in Iraq, and, if so, why? I beleive that there are a myriad of sound reasons to support such action. However, I always will bend to the Church. So, is this an area of binding doctrine that the Holy See is proclaiming?

I am sure there has been a number of threads here, but I have not found any.

you could do a lot worse than to agree with Pope John Paul II…

 

[caroljm36]

There was a thread here Tuesday that said the Vatican has more or less reversed its position and has reconsidered the threat of jihad as a whole, and is supporting the establishment of a new govt in Iraq rather than continuing to decry the effort. This according to the top spokesman for the Pope.

Here is the thread

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=21886

 

[JamesD]

I too have a real hard time with this.
I heard the program too. In fact the Dr responded to an email I sent Drew.

I could have argued with the Dr. all night long on his points.

I also think that I should really be listening to the holy father.
On the one hand the Pope is much wiser, experienced, and probably more knowledgeable than me.
On the other hand he only seems to me to adress what the Bush administration said and not what they didn’t say. I also think that JPII might feel it risky to support a war that Muslims might consider a Crusade.

I disagree with the international law arguement against the war. But I don’t feel too confident in deciding about the proportionality aspects and the proximity aspects.
The way I deal with it is to remember that it is a done deal. I will revisit it someday when there is more info and the fruits are revealed.
I believe it is a prudential judgement but if forced to make a decision I would go with the Holy father but I would still respect the authority of our Government leaders.

 

[benw98]

Aragorn:

I heard on Catholic Relevant Radio last night a Dr. Mark Miraveilli (bad spelling) speaking on the Holy Father’s disapproval of the war in Iraq. I have a couple of questions: Is it sinful to support the war in Iraq, and, if so, why? I beleive that there are a myriad of sound reasons to support such action. However, I always will bend to the Church. So, is this an area of binding doctrine that the Holy See is proclaiming?

I am sure there has been a number of threads here, but I have not found any.

Greetings,
I’m a seminarian for the Diocese of Erie hoping to shed some light on this for you.
The Holy Father did not make his opinion on the war a binding opinion. Catholics are free to oppose or support the war as they see fit.
An Important part of Just war is where the authority is given in the Catechism. The final arbitor of deciding whether these qualifications are met are in the heads of states.
Many of our brothers and sisters will try to to tell us that it is a sin to support the war, believe me they have tried to bludgeon me with this idea, but they are mistaken.
There are only a few social issues that we must be in complete agreement, abortion, Euthanasia, life-ending or creating research like embryonic stem cell research and cloning, ‘gay’ marriage among others. These issues have no esceptions to the rule, while issues like war and the death penalty have definite exceptions.
Hope this is helpful
Benjamen J Wren

 

[space_ghost]

JamesD:

I too have a real hard time with this.
I heard the program too. In fact the Dr responded to an email I sent Drew.

I could have argued with the Dr. all night long on his points.

I also think that I should really be listening to the holy father.
On the one hand the Pope is much wiser, experienced, and probably more knowledgeable than me.
On the other hand he only seems to me to adress what the Bush administration said and not what they didn’t say. I also think that JPII might feel it risky to support a war that Muslims might consider a Crusade.

I disagree with the international law arguement against the war. But I don’t feel too confident in deciding about the proportionality aspects and the proximity aspects.
The way I deal with it is to remember that it is a done deal. I will revisit it someday when there is more info and the fruits are revealed.
I believe it is a prudential judgement but if forced to make a decision I would go with the Holy father but I would still respect the authority of our Government leaders.

when in doubt… stay close to Rome!

 

[jlw]

Thank You Brother!! We are praying for you!!

And thank you for your clarity!

 

[Joanna]

Aragorn:

I heard on Catholic Relevant Radio last night a Dr. Mark Miraveilli (bad spelling) speaking on the Holy Father’s disapproval of the war in Iraq. I have a couple of questions: Is it sinful to support the war in Iraq, and, if so, why? I beleive that there are a myriad of sound reasons to support such action. However, I always will bend to the Church. So, is this an area of binding doctrine that the Holy See is proclaiming?

I am sure there has been a number of threads here, but I have not found any.

No, it is not sinful to support the war in Iraq.
ID=15865frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?
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"Tomasi’s remarks directly reflect Pope John Paul II’s thinking. In his message for the 2000 World Day of Peace, the pope said that “when a civilian population risks being overcome by the attacks of an unjust aggressor, and political efforts and non-violent defense prove to be of no avail, it is legitimate and even obligatory to take concrete measure to disarm the aggressor.”

"If the just war tradition is indeed a tradition of statecraft, then the proper role of religious leaders and public intellectuals is to do everything possible to clarify the moral issues at stake in a time of war, while recognizing that what we might call the “charism of responsibility” lies elsewhere–with duly constituted public authorities, who are more fully informed about the relevant facts and who must bear the weight of responsible decision–making and governance. It is simply clericalism to suggest that religious leaders and public intellectuals “own” the just war tradition in a singular way."firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0301/articles/weigel.html

“Among true worshipers of God those wars are looked on as peacemaking which are waged neither from aggrandizement nor cruelty but with the object of securing peace, of repressing the evil and supporting the good.”– St. Thomas Aquinas.

 

[gilliam]

Aragorn:

So, is this an area of binding doctrine that the Holy See is proclaiming?

No, it is not binding. The Holy See is now supporting our presence in Iraq. It is purely a political stand.

The people who are responsible for determining if a war is just or not, are not the Bishops or the Pope, but the civil leadership who have access to top secret info (not simply propaganda from a bribed UN). For the US, it would be the President and Congress. It is their immortal souls that are at risk. Reference, Catholic Catechism. See:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm#2307

WAR IS SOMETIMES NECESSARY, SAYS ARCHBISHOP AT ANNUAL MILITARY MASS

Papal Address to Iraqi Prime Minister 2004-11-04 ]
“Respect for the Ethnic and Religious Diversity”

Pope’s Telegram to New President of Iraq 2004-06-30 ]
“Catholic Church Offers You Every Support”

 

[Hildebrand]

JamesD:

I too have a real hard time with this.
I heard the program too. In fact the Dr responded to an email I sent Drew.

I could have argued with the Dr. all night long on his points.

I also think that I should really be listening to the holy father.
On the one hand the Pope is much wiser, experienced, and probably more knowledgeable than me.
On the other hand he only seems to me to adress what the Bush administration said and not what they didn’t say. I also think that JPII might feel it risky to support a war that Muslims might consider a Crusade.

I disagree with the international law arguement against the war. But I don’t feel too confident in deciding about the proportionality aspects and the proximity aspects.
The way I deal with it is to remember that it is a done deal. I will revisit it someday when there is more info and the fruits are revealed.
I believe it is a prudential judgement but if forced to make a decision I would go with the Holy father but I would still respect the authority of our Government leaders.

Well said.

*I would still respect the authority of our Government leaders. *And the Catechisms would agree with you. Such decisions are the decisions of legitimate governments to decide. That is the Church’s teaching.

 

[CaptSC]

I don’t know if this helps, but the President has information that the Pope doesn’t, therefore being in a better position to make judgement calls if their is a danger.

Anyways, 24 million people have been liberated from tyranny, what’s wrong with that?

 

[Hildebrand]

CaptSC:

I don’t know if this helps, but the President has information that the Pope doesn’t, therefore being in a better position to make judgement calls if their is a danger.

Anyways, 24 million people have been liberated from tyranny, what’s wrong with that?

This is why the OFFICIAL teaching of the Catholic Church is to LEAVE these matters up to the governments to decide.

 

[Hildebrand]

space ghost:

you could do a lot worse than to agree with Pope John Paul II…

The pope was opposed to the First Gulf War. Was the First Gulf War an unjust, illegal, and murderous war? If you go with the position of the pope as being the deciding factor - it was. If he was opposed to removing Saddam from Kuwait by use of overwhelming force, then it must have been wrong, right?

 

[Aragorn]

I was under the impression that the Pope supported the Gulf War. I also happen to view this war as an extension of that war, as the primary reason we went over there was to enforce the treaties that Sadaam had violated. If so, by default the support would still be there.

 

[gilliam]

Aragorn:

I was under the impression that the Pope supported the Gulf War. I also happen to view this war as an extension of that war, as the primary reason we went over there was to enforce the treaties that Sadaam had violated. If so, by default the support would still be there.

Aragorn, it really doesn’t matter if the Pope supported the war or not. He doesn’t have the information to make the judgement call. That is why, in the wisdom of the Church, the call is left up to the civil authorities. By the way, the Pope didn’t know the UN, France, and other countries who were advising him on these matters were being bribed by Saddam (the President did).

 

[Aragorn]

I agree, Gilliam. Intel was on our side and the trend ertainly was, so where was this guy coming from saying that the war was not supported by the Pope?

We had strong reasons to be there, very defensible in my opinion.

 

[gilliam]

Aragorn:

I agree, Gilliam. Intel was on our side and the trend ertainly was, so where was this guy coming from saying that the war was not supported by the Pope?

We had strong reasons to be there, very defensible in my opinion.

The Pope has his political opinion, like everyone else. He now is in favor of our troops staying in Iraq and seeing this through.

 

[Hildebrand]

Aragorn:

I was under the impression that the Pope supported the Gulf War.

John Paul II has worked for peace in many parts of the world. He has supported efforts to achieve reconciliation between conflicting parties in troubled areas like Lebanon, the Balkans, and the Persian Gulf, where he sought to avert the Gulf War of 1991.

osv.com/catholicalmanac/popejpiia.asp

During and after the Persian Gulf War, the Holy Father repeatedly voiced his skepticism of war as a tool of international policy. In his 1991 encyclical letter Centesimus annus, the Holy Father referred to that conflict in declaring: “No, never again war, which destroys the lives of innocent people, teaches how to kill, throws into upheaval even the lives of those who do the killing and leaves behind a trail of resentment and hatred, thus making it all the more difficult to find a just solution of the very problems which provoked the war.”

georgetown.edu/centers/woodstock/publications/article19.htm

In the Persian Gulf War; in 1990 before war broke, wrote letters to both President George Bush and Iraqi President Saddam Hussein urging a peaceful solution

ewtn.com/jp2/papal3/historyof.htm

Aragorn:

I also happen to view this war as an extension of that war, as the primary reason we went over there was to enforce the treaties that Sadaam had violated. If so, by default the support would still be there.

This was my reasoning back in 2002 when war was being discussed. I was mad Bush did not make this argument in 2002 and to this day I am still mad at Bush for failing to make this argument. There was NOTHING pre-emptive about the Second Persian Gulf War. What gets me is how long were we going to wait until we realized we were at a de jure state of war with Saddam (and a de facto state of war because he was firing at our planes)? Were we to wait another decade of Saddam violating the cease-fire agreements which ended the Persian Gulf War in 1991?

 

[Peacemonger]

Aragorn:

I heard on Catholic Relevant Radio last night a Dr. Mark Miraveilli (bad spelling) speaking on the Holy Father’s disapproval of the war in Iraq. I have a couple of questions: Is it sinful to support the war in Iraq, and, if so, why? I beleive that there are a myriad of sound reasons to support such action. However, I always will bend to the Church. So, is this an area of binding doctrine that the Holy See is proclaiming?

I am sure there has been a number of threads here, but I have not found any.

The Holy See declared to the UN that an invasion of Iraq would be unjust.

Just as it is a sin to support abortion it is a sin to support unjust wars and if this war is anything, its unjust.

Jesus has laid out a very clear plan for defeating evil but most people, including Christians, ignore it.

 

[benw98]

Peacemonger:

The Holy See declared to the UN that an invasion of Iraq would be unjust.

Just as it is a sin to support abortion it is a sin to support unjust wars and if this war is anything, its unjust.

Jesus has laid out a very clear plan for defeating evil but most people, including Christians, ignore it.

My friend,
it is not a sin because it isopen to interpretation.
The Holy See has a responsibility to urge peace but they cannot declare a war unjust. They can declare tactics* unjust but they cannot declare a particular war unjust.
This info came from my Vice-Chancellor, a very good and holy priest.
Thanks,
Ben*