Just what is the relationship of John the Evanelist to Jesus Christ?

[Aurelio]

Hola! Hello!

Say, the question came up a while back in a bible studies class in one of America’s medium sized dioceses regarding the relationship (if any) beween John the Evangelist and Jesus Christ.

What seems to confuse a lot of us is that there is (or seems) to be little doubt that John the Baptist, for example, is indeed the cousin of Jesus.

The best that I can tell is this: there seems to be a raw emotional reaction on the part of many of us to even remotely consider the possibility that the Virgin Mary could ever have been otherwise than an only child of aging parents.

This, in turn, is compounded by an idea of many of us who are bilingual Spanish-English that the Hebrews may well have had
some word or concept of what we call in Spanish “Brother (and sister) Cousins,” by which we mean “First Cousins” in English.

So, when we look this topic up under John 19:25, within, in our own humble case, three broad categories of commmentaries, wow! Watch out!

And it desn’t seem to matter if the sources are broken down like this: so-called “American” Catholic, so-called “Roman Catholic,” or so-called “Christian,” or “Protestant” sources. There’s a lot of tantalizing evidence that seem to point in all directions at once, regarding whether or not the Virgin Mary had at least one “real” sister, or perhaps any number of what we might call “Cousin” sisters.

Thanks, good people!

Aurelio

 

[mercygate]

Hola! Hello!

Say, the question came up a while back in a bible studies class in one of America’s medium sized dioceses regarding the relationship (if any) beween John the Evangelist and Jesus Christ.

What seems to confuse a lot of us is that there is (or seems) to be little doubt that John the Baptist, for example, is indeed the cousin of Jesus.

The best that I can tell is this: there seems to be a raw emotional reaction on the part of many of us to even remotely consider the possibility that the Virgin Mary could ever have been otherwise than an only child of aging parents.

This, in turn, is compounded by an idea of many of us who are bilingual Spanish-English that the Hebrews may well have had
some word or concept of what we call in Spanish “Brother (and sister) Cousins,” by which we mean “First Cousins” in English.

So, when we look this topic up under John 19:25, within, in our own humble case, three broad categories of commmentaries, wow! Watch out!

And it desn’t seem to matter if the sources are broken down like this: so-called “American” Catholic, so-called “Roman Catholic,” or so-called “Christian,” or “Protestant” sources. There’s a lot of tantalizing evidence that seem to point in all directions at once, regarding whether or not the Virgin Mary had at least one “real” sister, or perhaps any number of what we might call “Cousin” sisters.

Thanks, good people!

Aurelio

Since Elizabeth was “advanced in years,” although it is not impossible that she and Mary were “real” sisters, it is not likely. Moreover, the Greek word used by Luke is “suggenis” – usually translated as “kinswoman.” “Real sister” (see Luke 10:39) is “adelphe.”

This supports “kinswoman” or “cousin sister” as being the more accurate rendering.

 

[Eileen_T]

Excuse my ignorance here, but is it possible that John (& James) could have been cousins through Joseph’s family? From what I understand, they would still have been regarded as cousins of Jesus even though he was the foster/adopted son of Joseph.

It also occrred to me that although only Elizabeth is spoken of as Mary’s ‘kinswoman’, there may have been other cousins from Mary’s parents’ brothers & sisters. I haven’t studied on this, just expressing a thought.

 

[DaveBj]

Are we talking about John the Evangelist, or John the Baptist? Elizabeth was the mother of the latter, not the former.

An interesting point–Elizabeth was Mary’s “kinswoman,” but Mary would have had to have been from the lineage of David, in order for Jesus to be a genetic descendant of David (as well as a legal descendant of David, as a legal son of Joseph), whereas E’beth was a “daughter of Aaron.” For E’beth to be Mary’s “kinswoman,” the connection would have had to have been through Mary’s mother. If so, the interesting result of that is that Mary, and thus Jesus, would have blood ties to both the tribe of Judah (the kingly line) and the tribe of Levi (the priestly line).

There is also evidence that Mary and the mother of John the Evangelist were sisters, which would have made John and Jesus first cousins. That would explain the special affection Jesus had for John. That plus the Levitical connection would also explain why John was “known to the high priest”–they were distantly related.

DaveBj

 

[Aurelio]

Hello!

Yes, it’s almost like some sort of literary “detective story,” if anything, even more fascinating as it deals with real people, for example:

!) The GIDEON’S Spanish New Testament states in their version of John 19:25

“Together at the cross of Jesus there were his mother, and the sister of his mother, Mary wife of Cleofas, and Mary Magdalen.”

1. Protestant author William Temple in his Readings in St. John’s Gospel: First and Second Series, tells us on page 349, regarding John 19:25-27:

“There were four women by the cross- Mary the Mother of of the Lord and her sister, Salome, the mother of the Beloved Disciple;…etc.”

1. 19th Century Roman Catholic author the Rev. Bernard O’Reaily on page 43 of his add-on “History of the Books of the Holy Catholic Bible,” to Fr. George Leo Haydock’s 1859 edition and commentary of The DOUAY-RHEIMS NEW TESTAMENT gives us this interesting tidbit regarding John the Evangelist:

“John, as well as James the Elder or Greater was by his mother, Mary-Salome, the first cousin of our Lord; James the Less or Younger and Jude or Thadeus being the sons of another sister – all four, on account of their near relationship, being designated in Jewish phrase as the brothers of Our Lord.”

1. The New American Bible, 1970 paperback edition, by the Con-fraternity of Christian Doctrine, John 19:25

“Near the cross of Jesus there stood his Mother, his Mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas(sic.), and Mary Magdalene.”

The footnote at the bottom of the page explains all this:

“It is not clear whether three or four women are meant c.? whether ‘Mary the wife of Clopas’ is, or is not in apposition with ‘his mother’s sister,’ the Syriac tradition has four women.”

1. Online New American Bible,

usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john19.htm

“John 19:25 Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala.”

“Footnote: It is not clear whether four women are meant, or three (i.e., Mary the wife of Cl[e]opas [cf Luke 24.18] is in apposition with his mother’s sister) or two (his mother and his mother’s sister, i.e., Mary of Cl[e]opas and Mary of Magdala). Only John mentions the mother of Jesus here. The synoptics have a group of women looking on from a distance at teh cross (Mark 15:40)”

Gosh, it does seem still a little bit uncertain and complicated!

Keep up the good fight!

Aurelio

 

[Eileen_T]

I have just been given 4 volumes of The Mystical City of God by Ven. Mary of Agreda on the Life of the BVM. Now I know what spiritual reading I’ll be doing this Lent.

 

[thistle]

Eileen T:

I have just been given 4 volumes of The Mystical City of God by Ven. Mary of Agreda on the Life of the BVM. Now I know what spiritual reading I’ll be doing this Lent.

Did you post this in the wrong thread? I’m trying work out how that relates to the topic.

 

[Eileen_T]

thistle:

Did you post this in the wrong thread? I’m trying work out how that relates to the topic.

It should answer the questions raised in this thread about John the Evangelist and just who were with Mary at Calvary.

 

[thistle]

Eileen T:

It should answer the questions raised in this thread about John the Evangelist and just who were with Mary at Calvary.

Thanks. I haven’t read that. Is this a private revelation?