Justice Without Prudence

[Bubba_Switzler]

The CCC describes prudence as follows:

Prudence is the virtue that disposes practical reason to discern our true good in every circumstance and to choose the right means of achieving it; “the prudent man looks where he is going.” "Keep sane and sober for your prayers."66 Prudence is “right reason in action,” writes St. Thomas Aquinas, following Aristotle.67 It is not to be confused with timidity or fear, nor with duplicity or dissimulation. It is called auriga virtutum (the charioteer of the virtues); it guides the other virtues by setting rule and measure. It is prudence that immediately guides the judgment of conscience. The prudent man determines and directs his conduct in accordance with this judgment. With the help of this virtue we apply moral principles to particular cases without error and overcome doubts about the good to achieve and the evil to avoid.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a7.htm

Wikipedia defines it thus:

Prudence (Lat. prudentia, contracted from providentia, seeing ahead) is the ability to govern and discipline oneself by the use of reason. It is classically considered to be a virtue, and in particular one of the four Cardinal virtues (which are, with the three theological virtues, part of the seven virtues).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prudence

Wikipedia notes that: “Without prudence bravery becomes foolhardiness; mercy sinks into weakness, and temperance into fanaticism.”

But what is justice without prudence?

 

[Theophorus]

There is no such thing as justice without prudence.

Justice is the act of giving the other their what is due to them.

In order to determine who the other is and what is due to them in the concrete situation requires prudence which of course applies the universal(for justice: to give each his due) to the concrete situation(for justice this person X, is the other and I owe him Y).

If you were to refer to it as anything it would be injustice or maybe more properly lack of justice.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

If justice is never imprudent then what use is prudence? Why is justice not a sufficient qualification of bravery, mercy, and temperance?

 

[Theophorus]

If justice is never imprudent then what use is prudence? Why is justice not a sufficient qualification of bravery, mercy, and temperance?

I’m not sure I follow?

Prudence is “the mother and mould of all the virtues” it is what gives the other virtues, such as justice, its proper object and specification.

Justice is “giving to the other their due”, Prudence clarifies and qualifies, in the particular, who the other is in a given situation and what is their due.

In that sense justice cannot exist without prudence it needs prudential judgement of particulars to be considered a just act. The human being can err in the application of prudence be it because they don’t know all the facts or because lack the experience to judge prudentially, have an underdeveloped virtue of prudence etc.

Why do you thing that would Justice be a sufficient qualification for bravery, mercy etc. ?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I’m not sure I follow?

Prudence is “the mother and mould of all the virtues” it is what gives the other virtues, such as justice, its proper object and specification.

Justice is “giving to the other their due”, Prudence clarifies and qualifies, in the particular, who the other is in a given situation and what is their due.

In that sense justice cannot exist without prudence it needs prudential judgement of particulars to be considered a just act. The human being can err in the application of prudence be it because they don’t know all the facts or because lack the experience to judge prudentially, have an underdeveloped virtue of prudence etc.

Why do you thing that would Justice be a sufficient qualification for bravery, mercy etc. ?

If there is no such thing as imprudent justice then prudence is unnecessary to justice. If prudence is necessary then there must be situations of imprudent justice.

If justice does not depend on prudence then perhaps prudence is mistakenly taken to be the “the mother and mould of all the virtues”. Perhaps justice is, instead.

 

[Theophorus]

If there is no such thing as imprudent justice then prudence is unnecessary to justice. If prudence is necessary then there must be situations of imprudent justice.

If justice does not depend on prudence then perhaps prudence is mistakenly taken to be the “the mother and mould of all the virtues”. Perhaps justice is, instead.

Imprudent justice would be injustice, or accidentally doing the right thing which is not justice properly speaking. For an act to be just it must also be prudent, just as for an act to be temperant, or fortitudinous it must likewise be prudent.

To say that if there is no such thing as imprudent justice then prudence is unnecessary for justice is a logical fallacy I’m afraid, the conclusion doesn’t follow. While the concept of imprudent justice itself is akin to that of a square circle, two words joined together in a meaningless way. One cannot act justly by accident, one might accidentally do the right thing, but that is not the same as doing a just act.

“The Four Cardinal Virtues” by Joseph Pieper is a very good book on the subject, which explains the catholic position on this very well.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Are you claiming that it is possible to be accidentally prudent but not accidentally just? That doesn’t strike me as reasonable.

I’m also curious why you claim a logical fallacy. Your explanation did not clarify that.

Let’s focus on deliberate choice. I can make a choice that is just. I can make a choice that is prudent. If there is no such thing as an imprudent just choice then it should be sufficient for me to make the just choice and to ignore the prudence, or lack thereof, of the choice.

I don’t recall ever hearing the word “prudence” in all my Catholic education. I suspect most Catholics who have not studied the CCC would be quite surprised to hear that it is “the mother and mould of all the virtues” and even those who have read the words would be at a loss to explain why.

On the other hand, justice is commonly the theme of discussion both without and outside of Catholic circles. It certainly appears to be the more popularly understood virtue.

I did find The Four Cardinal Virtues which I will read:

archive.org/stream/fourcardinalvirt012953mbp/fourcardinalvirt012953mbp_djvu.txt

Echoing the above, I note this from it:

Since this is so, there is a larger significance in the fact that people today can respond to this assertion of the pre-eminence of prudence only with incomprehension and uneasiness.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

From the book, this is slightly off-topic but interesting:

THE PRE-EMINENCE of prudence means that realization of the good presupposes knowledge of reality. He alone can do good who knows what things are like and what their situation is. The pre-eminence of prudence means that so-called “good intention” and so-called “meaning well” by no means suffice.

I’ve seem many times Catholics arguing in these forums that “good intention” and “meaning well” do, in fact, suffice. And that unintended consequences do not diminish the goodness of the act.

See e.g. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=690340

 

[lmelahn]

If justice is never imprudent then what use is prudence? Why is justice not a sufficient qualification of bravery, mercy, and temperance?

Justice in is broader sense means, in essence, the ease with which we are attracted to those goods that appeal directly to the will.

The other two cardinal virtues (other than prudence and justice), fortitude and temperance, constitute the ease with which we are attracted to goods that appeal to our sensual appetites (for fortitude, our irascible or “courageous” appetite; for temperance, our “concupiscible” appetite–what makes use desire the sensible things we need, such as food and companionship with the opposite sex, and so on).

The fundamental difference among each virtue is which appetite it works on: justice on the will (or intellectual appetite), fortitude on the irascible appetite, and temperance on the concupiscible appetite.

Prudence works on the intellect directly.