Justification starts BEFORE Baptism

[De_Maria]

I don’t know why so many people, even Catholics, say that Justification begins with Baptism. The Council of Trent is quite clear:

Trent says JUSTIFICATION begins with the predisposing grace, the unmerited call to conversion:
**CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS

  It is furthermore ****declared**  that in adults the beginning of that justification must     proceed  from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from  His     vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are  called;

Lets break this sentence down minutely. First of all, this is a DECLARATIVE SENTENCE. Why? Because it has the word “declare” in it. What does that mean?

Definitions of ** declaration** on the Web:

• a statement that is emphatic and explicit (spoken or written)
• (law) unsworn statement that can be admitted in evidence in a legal transaction; “his declaration of innocence”
• a statement of taxable goods or of dutiable properties
• contract: (contract bridge) the highest bid becomes the contract setting the number of tricks that the bidder must make
• announcement: a formal public statement; “the government made an announcement about changes in the drug war”; “a declaration of independence”
• resolution: a formal expression by a meeting; agreed to by a vote
  wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Next the Council says BEGINNING of that justification.

It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed

And then it says MUST proceed.

It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed

Proceed means “follow”:
Definitions of proceed on the Web:

• continue: continue talking; “I know it’s hard,” he continued, “but there is no choice”; “carry on–pretend we are not in the room”
• move ahead; travel onward in time or space; “We proceeded towards Washington”; “She continued in the direction of the hills”; “We are moving ahead in time now”
• go: follow a procedure or take a course; “We should go farther in this matter”; “She went through a lot of trouble”; “go about the world in a certain manner”; “Messages must go through diplomatic channels”
• follow a certain course; “The inauguration went well”; “how did your interview go?”
• continue: continue a certain state, condition, or activity; “Keep on working!”; “We continued to work into the night”; “Keep smiling”; “We went on working until well past midnight”
  wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

And the word MUST is an imperative:
Definitions of ** must** on the Web:

• a necessary or essential thing; “seat belts are an absolute must”
• grape juice before or during fermentation
• mustiness: the quality of smelling or tasting old or stale or mouldy
• must(a): highly recommended; “a book that is must reading”
  wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Then it says FROM the predisposing grace of God.:

**It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God **

What does from mean?
With the source or provenance of or at; With the origin, starting point or initial reference of or at; With the separation, exclusion or differentiation of
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/from

In other words, the origin of justification is the predisposing grace of God, there it starts and from their it continues. There is no ambiguity in that sentence. None at all.

Now, can anyone produce any evidence that suggests that the Council did not mean what it EXPLICITLY and IMPERATIVELY DECLARES in this statement?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

The Church has always understood justification as a process. Stating that justification happens, before (with actual grace) during (sanctifying grace due to sacrament) or after is merely pointing to different stages of the one process known as justification. Some choose to associate it with the end result rather than the initital stages. I do not believe either as wrong as long as the Catholic is aware that justification is, indeed, a process, and not simply a moment-in-time imputation.

 

[De_Maria]

The Church has always understood justification as a process. Stating that justification happens, before (with actual grace) during (sanctifying grace due to sacrament) or after is merely pointing to different stages of the one process known as justification. Some choose to associate it with the end result rather than the initital stages. I do not believe either as wrong as long as the Catholic is aware that justification is, indeed, a process, and not simply a moment-in-time imputation.

Agreed.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

I agree strongly, however, that stating that justification *begins *at baptism, even when stated in a short-hand manner, can lead to dangerous misunderstandings, particularly with protestants. That’s all they need, to hear that we think we come to the Sacraments without the promptings of grace. I already can hear the screams of “salvation by works”…

 

[runningdude]

I agree strongly, however, that stating that justification *begins *at baptism, even when stated in a short-hand manner, can lead to dangerous misunderstandings, particularly with protestants. That’s all they need, to hear that we think we come to the Sacraments without the promptings of grace. I already can hear the screams of “salvation by works”…

But to us cradle Catholics, this is just so obvious and implicitly understood! We just stand there mouth wide open :bigyikes:, as they scream “salvation by works!, salvation by works!”, as the concept is so foreign to us

 

[clmowry]

I think you need one more highlight:

It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God.

In infants, I believe it would be correct to assert that justification does in fact begin at baptism. [Which of course only occurs because of the predisposing grace of God in the adult parents that proceeded the infants baptism.]

Chuck

**It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed **from the predisposing grace of God

 

[James224]

Hello De Maria,

I would agree with you and everyone on this first page to a degree. The Council of Trent says in another place, "A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace. By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. " (Decree on Justification, Ch 4, Session 6)

So, in a sense, the Justification Process may begin before Baptism (from Actual Grace), but Justification itself doesn’t happen until Baptism (with infants) or through Desire (Catacumens not yet Baptized).

Your thoughts on this are good.

 

[De_Maria]

I agree strongly, however, that stating that justification *begins *at baptism, even when stated in a short-hand manner, can lead to dangerous misunderstandings, particularly with protestants. That’s all they need, to hear that we think we come to the Sacraments without the promptings of grace. I already can hear the screams of “salvation by works”…

Did you read Trent VI, Chapter 5?

It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God.

 

[De_Maria]

I think you need one more highlight:

It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God.

In infants, I believe it would be correct to assert that justification does in fact begin at baptism. [Which of course only occurs because of the predisposing grace of God in the adult parents that proceeded the infants baptism.]

I assumed that was understood. Infants are another case altogether.

Chuck

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Hello De Maria,

I would agree with you and everyone on this first page to a degree. The Council of Trent says in another place, "A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace. By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. " (Decree on Justification, Ch 4, Session 6)

So, in a sense, the Justification Process may begin before Baptism (from Actual Grace), but Justification itself doesn’t happen until Baptism (with infants) or through Desire (Catacumens not yet Baptized).

Your thoughts on this are good.

I agree completely. Permit me to summarize the process of justification as I understand it, using a real life example from RCIA.

First, the person is called, by God. This is called the predisposing grace of God, whereby the individual begins to search for God. This predisposing grace is unnamed in Trent VI, chapter 5, but I suspect is the gift of faith because Scripture says:
Ephesians 2:8
**For by grace are ye saved ****through **faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Second, the person begins to seek God. How does he do that? Well, if they choose the Catholic Church, they begin by learning the Ten Commandments. And they begin to do works worthy of repentance:
Acts 26:20
**But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works ****meet for **repentance.

Therefore, they learn to pray and to live virtuous lives.

Why do they do this?
a. to meet the requirements of the Church.
b. to be just before God:
Romans 2:13
**(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be **justified.

It seems strange to say that you must be just in order to be justified, but that is absolutely true:
Matthew 25:27-29 (King James Version)

*27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. *

• 28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. *
• 29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.*

So, he who has multiplied his faith by investing it in good works, will be given more.

But how?

1. The catechumen requests baptism. If the Church is satisfied that this request is sincere, then the catechumen is baptized.

God washes his soul and remits his sins. The process which he undergoes is called sanctification. And this process only happens within Baptism. And now the individual is reborn unto good works, which God has prepared that he should walk in them.

1. This individual is then sent out to do the works of God. To continue justifying himself by faith and works.
2. I say, “justifying himself” because works are transforming. Making virtuous habits, we transform ourselves on the outside.
3. But continuing in the Sacraments, God transforms us from the inside, by the INFUSION of Sanctifying grace.

I believe this corresponds to the teaching of Trent.

Please let me know your thoughts.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Jolly_Jumbuck]

I don’t know why so many people, even Catholics, say that Justification begins with Baptism. The Council of Trent is quite clear:

Trent says JUSTIFICATION begins with the predisposing grace, the unmerited call to conversion:
**CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS

** It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called;

Lets break this sentence down minutely. First of all, this is a DECLARATIVE SENTENCE. Why? Because it has the word “declare” in it. What does that mean?

Definitions of ** declaration** on the Web:

• a statement that is emphatic and explicit (spoken or written)
• (law) unsworn statement that can be admitted in evidence in a legal transaction; “his declaration of innocence”
• a statement of taxable goods or of dutiable properties
• contract: (contract bridge) the highest bid becomes the contract setting the number of tricks that the bidder must make
• announcement: a formal public statement; “the government made an announcement about changes in the drug war”; “a declaration of independence”
• resolution: a formal expression by a meeting; agreed to by a vote
  wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Next the Council says BEGINNING of that justification.

It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed

And then it says MUST proceed.

It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed

Proceed means “follow”:
Definitions of proceed on the Web:

• continue: continue talking; “I know it’s hard,” he continued, “but there is no choice”; “carry on–pretend we are not in the room”
• move ahead; travel onward in time or space; “We proceeded towards Washington”; “She continued in the direction of the hills”; “We are moving ahead in time now”
• go: follow a procedure or take a course; “We should go farther in this matter”; “She went through a lot of trouble”; “go about the world in a certain manner”; “Messages must go through diplomatic channels”
• follow a certain course; “The inauguration went well”; “how did your interview go?”
• continue: continue a certain state, condition, or activity; “Keep on working!”; “We continued to work into the night”; “Keep smiling”; “We went on working until well past midnight”
  wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

And the word MUST is an imperative:
Definitions of ** must** on the Web:

• a necessary or essential thing; “seat belts are an absolute must”
• grape juice before or during fermentation
• mustiness: the quality of smelling or tasting old or stale or mouldy
• must(a): highly recommended; “a book that is must reading”
  wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Then it says FROM the predisposing grace of God.:

**It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed **from the predisposing grace of God

What does from mean?
With the source or provenance of or at; With the origin, starting point or initial reference of or at; With the separation, exclusion or differentiation of
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/from

In other words, the origin of justification is the predisposing grace of God, there it starts and from their it continues. There is no ambiguity in that sentence. None at all.

Now, can anyone produce any evidence that suggests that the Council did not mean what it EXPLICITLY and IMPERATIVELY DECLARES in this statement?

Sincerely,

De Maria

**Could you explain what justification is and what it does?

I need to understand. **