Justification

[fhansen]

“What Augustine says is indeed true: He who has created you without yourself will not save you without yourself. Works are necessary for salvation, but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life. For the sake of hypocrites it should be said that good works are necessary for salvation. Works must be done, but it does not follow from this that works save… Works save externally, that is, they testify that we are just and that in a man there is that faith which saves him internally, as Paul says: ‘With the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation’.” Luther

It’s simpler than that; Luther didn’t quite get it.

“For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.… Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matt 5:20 and 48

And what is our righteousness, our perfection? Not faith-at least not mere faith alone by any means.

Jesus goes on to tell us in the Sermon on the Mount that our justice is not about being externally righteous. Paul said that he did as much but that he wasn’t justified by that. Jesus tells us that our hearts, themselves, let alone our external actions, must be righteous first of all.

And of course scripture also tells us that, while man judges by appearances, God judges by the heart.

And who does Jesus then say possesses a righteous heart? He who loves God with his whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and his neighbor as himself. With this, the greatest commandment, sin is excluded, and the Law is fulfilled.

Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Rom13:10

 

[JonNC]

=loneviking;6985477]Jon, you lost me. What is ‘JDDJ’…Joint Declaration on ?

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, which our synod, for reasons that make no sense to me, has not signed on to.

For Lutherans, Justification and Sanctification are the same thing from different perspectives.

Justification is between God and you, where God justifies you and declares you innocent. The problem is that the world (your family, friends and neighbors) can’t see this. What they do see is:

Sanctification–which are the works we do because we are saved; which are seen by the world around us; and through which Christ continues His ministry to a lost and dying world. There’s a Lutheran saying ‘Saved to Serve’ that pretty much encompasses this idea.

I agree. that is why there is no justification without sanctification. Good works do not justify, but the justified must do good works. Failure to do so is sin, and repeated, unrepented sin eventually drives out the Holy Spirit.

Jon

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

(This where i will demonstrate that the differences on this point are merely verbal.)

The biblical answer is “faith”. But I ask you what kind of “faith” is it?

Is it merely the human free-will assent to the promises of God? If so is not this “faith” an act-or a WORK-of the human will and intellect?

Or is this “faith” a grace-a supernatural gift from God-that actually confers an ontological change in the person it is bestowed upon?

If “faith”-according to your interpretation of Paul-is all that is necessary, why does Paul write in 1 Cor 13:13 that love is greater than faith? Why in his letter to the Romans, does Paul write "love, not faith, “love is the fulfillment of the law”?

Shawn38, are you going to answer these questions or ignore them?

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

"*Pro 17:15 He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD. *
Is to justify the wicked to make them more wicked? No, but it’s pronounce that the wicked are justified. It’s a vindication.

And to condemn the just is not to make them evil. It is to declare a status of the just.

*Deut 25:1 “If there is a dispute between men and they go to court, and the judges decide their case, and they justify the righteous and condemn the wicked, *

To justify the just is not to make them more just. And to condemn the wicked isn’t to make them more evil. They’re pronouncements of judicial status.

*1 Cor 4:4 For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord. *

Paul could not even justify himself. He did not have the authority, but only God does.he.”

Lk 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.

Was God made more just? No, but God was declared just in His decision.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

This is declaration. This is an acquital and pronouncement of judicial status.

Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

God is just in justifying the ungodly without bypassing justice as well. He did it by sending His Son who would qualify as the perfect law keeper and perfect sacrifice for the appeasement of sin.

*Rom 3:26 He did it to demonstrate hHis justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Rom 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! *" R. Zins

I don’t argue the meaning of the scriptures, they are true. I do have a problem with your fallible interpretation of them.

The problem you are not realizing is that if God, by this"declared aquittal" only merely “covers” our sins and we go to heaven in this state-clean on the outside yet still selfish humanity on the inside-*then the Bible is lying when it says "nothing unclean shall enter it(heaven). It also allows the possibility of another Fall.

God is not a tyrant, He is not going to change our wills by force, it MUST be a free-will choice on our part. But we cannot even make this choice of Faith so as to be justified without the prior grace of God.

And “Faith witout works is dead.” What is the “work” that we are suppose to do so that our Faith is a live Faith and not a dead one?

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

DBA-Drive-By Apologetics

 

[shawn38]

Was Abraham justified in Gen 12:1-4? We know from Heb 11:8-10 that he had faith.

If he was not justified, why?

Rom 4:2 says he was justified in Gen 15:6.

James 2:21 says Abraham was justified in Gen. 22:1-18.

If justification is not a process why is he justified more than once?

With a fiducia faith (belief and trust), you’re justified once which Abraham was 30 years prior to offering Isaac. Now Abraham was justified (because God told him to) in offering Isaac.

Justification is not a process, but judicial declaration. Sanctification is the lifelong process of obedience to God.

We are justified through faith, apart from works, in the atoning work of Christ. Now if the infused grace doesn’t bring about change and obedience, were you ever justified? No.

*1 Cor 3:11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. *

Faith in Christ is the foundation. As we’re being sanctified, we’re building upon that faith through works (fruits). When we die those works will be judged for our reward. But regardless of the outcome of that judgment, we still will be saved because of the imputed righteousness of Christ.

The moment you add works to salvation you eliminate the assurance of salvation. How do you know if you’ve ever done enough?

Eph 1:13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Once you believed, you’re sealed. Once embossed by the Holy Spirit, we experience a true conversion.

 

[fhansen]

The moment you add works to salvation you eliminate the assurance of salvation. How do you know if you’ve ever done enough?

So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 1 Cor 10, 12

bu**t he who stands firm to the end will be saved. **Matthew 24:13

**No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. **1 Cor 9:27

 

[Third_Day]

=shawn38;6994701]Justification is not a process, but judicial declaration. Sanctification is the lifelong process of obedience to God.

We are justified through faith, apart from works, in the atoning work of Christ. Now if the infused grace doesn’t bring about change and obedience, were you ever justified? No

.
If we are justified only through faith then why does Paul say “It is the doers of the law who **will be justified” ** Rom.2:13

Was Adam just declared to be a sinner or was he a sinner? (Asking this for the fourth time)

When we die those works will be judged for our reward. But regardless of the outcome of that judgment, we still will be saved because of the imputed righteousness of Christ

.
According to scripture it is our faith along with our works that determine our final destination of eternal life or eternal hell.
“For he will give to every man according to his works…eternal life” Rom. 2:6
“But to those who are factious and do not obey the truth but obey wickedness there will be wrath and fury.” Rom 2:8

The moment you add works to salvation you eliminate the assurance of salvation. How do you know if you’ve ever done enough?

Simply remain in the state of grace and you will be saved. DId Paul believe he had assurance of salvation?

1 Cor: 9:27: No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be reprobate. (adokimos) reprobate, unfit, spurious

What did he tell the Galatians?
Galatians 5:19-21:
”Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, idolatry….I warn you as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God”

Your interpretaion would read “Those who do such things, except those who have accepted Christ as their savior and are assured salvation, shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”

I]Eph 1:13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

]
THis is a reference to baptism where we are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Once you believed, you’re sealed. Once embossed by the Holy Spirit, we experience a true conversion

.You have no way of knowing that you have absolute assurance of salvation. Anyone call fall away.

Luke 8:13 And the one on the rock are those who when they hear the word receive it with joy but these have not root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away"

 

[shawn38]

"
Could you answer this question.
Was Adam "declared ’ to be a sinner or was he actually made a sinner by his rejection of God’s grace when he sinned?

God did not make Adam sin. Adam transgressed against God’s commandment.

*James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. *

This does not mean that God will not allow the devil to tempt us. Job is a perfect example.

Job 2:4“Skin for skin!” Satan replied. “A man will give all he has for his own life. 5But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face.” 6The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life.”

 

[ryanoneil]

With a fiducia faith (belief and trust), you’re justified once which Abraham was 30 years prior to offering Isaac.

Was he justified 25 years prior to that (Gen. 12:1-4) when God promised to make his name great and bless the families of the earth through his seed?

Now Abraham was justified (because God told him to) in offering Isaac.

Justification is not a process, but judicial declaration. Sanctification is the lifelong process of obedience to God.

Did this other declaration increase Abraham’s justification?

If so, God “proceeded” to increase his justification.

We are justified through faith, apart from works, in the atoning work of Christ. Now if the infused grace doesn’t bring about change and obedience, were you ever justified? No.

So if Abraham had refused to sacrifice Isaac, he would not have actually been justified in Gen. 15:6, even though God had declared it so?

The moment you add works to salvation you eliminate the assurance of salvation. How do you know if you’ve ever done enough?

It sound like you are saying Abraham’s justification and the assurance of his salvation was dependant on whether he sacrificed Isaac or not (because if the infused grace had not brought about obedience he would not have been justified in the first place). Maybe I’m misunderstanding you. Could answer my questions and explain your belief a different way? Thanks

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

I’m still waiting for him to answer mine…

 

[JonNC]

God did not make Adam sin. Adam transgressed against God’s commandment.

*James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. *

This does not mean that God will not allow the devil to tempt us. Job is a perfect example.

Job 2:4“Skin for skin!” Satan replied. “A man will give all he has for his own life. 5But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face.” 6The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life.”

This sounds like, Shawn, you acknowledge free will (of the regenerate), and reject perseverence of saints and OSAS.

Jon

 

[shawn38]

(This where i will demonstrate that the differences on this point are merely verbal.)

The biblical answer is “faith”. But I ask you what kind of “faith” is it?

A fiducia faith which is more than mental acknowledgment (ascenta) for demons even believe. It involves a trust in something, a giving over to it, a complete believing and acceptance of something. Remember

James 2:19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

Is it merely the human free-will assent to the promises of God? If so is not this “faith” an act-or a WORK-of the human will and intellect?

Faith is not a work. Paul differentiates between work and faith here.
Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Or is this “faith” a grace-a supernatural gift from God-that actually confers an ontological change in the person it is bestowed upon?"

But a gift
Rom 12:3 …but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

If “faith”-according to your interpretation of Paul-is all that is necessary, why does Paul write in 1 Cor 13:13 that love is greater than faith? Why in his letter to the Romans, does Paul write "love, not faith, “love is the fulfillment of the law”?

I’ll comment on the last thing later.

 

[Third_Day]

=shawn38;6995303]God did not make Adam sin. Adam transgressed against God’s commandment.

OK. We agree that Adam was not just “declared” to be a sinner, he actually became a sinner.

Please answer my next question. Scripture tells us this: “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners.” Rom. 5:19

Do you agree this verse is referring to Adam?
The “many” who were made sinners are they just "declared "to be sinners or are they actually made sinners?

Thanks

 

[shawn38]

The problem you are not realizing is that if God, by this"declared aquittal" only merely “covers” our sins and we go to heaven in this state-clean on the outside yet still selfish humanity on the inside-

Fiducia faith results in a true conversion of the heart. If not, then your faith is no better then the demons believe and shudder.

What is the “work” that we are suppose to do so that our Faith is a live Faith and not a dead one?

Obedience to God’s royal law manifests itself in acts of love…

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Fiducia faith results in a true conversion of the heart. If not, then your faith is no better then the demons believe and shudder.

Obedience to God’s royal law manifests itself in acts of love…

So what happens to the person who has “fiducia” faith and yet commits a grevious sin?