JW uses Proverbs 8:22 to deny divinity of Christ

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Hello !!

I had my second meeting with a JW yesterday and he pointed to this verse to show that Jesus was created by God and was not God himself.

Proverbs 8:22
The LORD begot me, the first-born of his ways, the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago;

His point was that Jesus was created and not THE creator.
I told him that I’d have to study that scripture before giving an answer.

At first glance I see that the Proverb is actually talking about “Wisdom” personified.

However, a footnote in the NAB states this…
[22-31] Wisdom is of divine origin. It is here represented as a being which existed before all things (Proverb 8:22-26) and concurred with God when he planned and executed the creation of the universe, adorned it with beauty and variety, and established its wonderful order (Proverb 8:27-30). Here that plurality of divine Persons is foreshadowed which was afterward to be fully revealed when Wisdom in the Person of Jesus Christ became incarnate.

It seems that ‘Wisdom’ is, at least in part, associated with Jesus.
I need help articulating how this proverb either cannot, in every detail, be associated with Jesus … or at least how this passage does not deny the divinity of Jesus.

THANKS!!!

michel
 
This Proverb speaks of Wisdom as an attribute of God, a part of His “Diviness”. Knowledge is an accumulation of facts, whereas Wisdom is perfect knowledge, perfect understanding and perfect justice. It only can be a reference to Jesus in that He shares equally the same substance as God - The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirirt. This is why the gift of “wisdom” to Solomon is so awesome, for it shares a kinship with God’s almighty wisdom.

We cannot think that this “Wisdom” is a code word for Jesus being created by God, since all three Persons have existed eternally as One. In Genesis, right after the Fall, we hear God saying " It is good that they did not eat from the tree of Immortality"; who was He talking to, if not the Son and the Holy Spirit?

Jesus, Himself, called Himself and the Father “one”, and “Whoever knows me knows the Father.” Jesus reveals the Holy Spirit before His Ascension, yet the Holy Spirit is evidently active in the Prophets of the Old Testament.

Jesus and the Holy Spirit “proceed” from the Father, and are of the same substance as God. The proverb is speaking soley of “wisdom” itself.
 
I’m copying the email I sent to the fellow this evening …

Steven !
Code: 
Again, I've enjoyed the discussions.
I owe you discussion on Proverbs.
I also wanted to bring up some history.
Proverbs 8:22
Code: 
In our last discussion you brought up Proverbs 8:22.
The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. (RSV = Revised Standard Version)

You attempted to lead me, or actually mislead me, to believe that this text was a reference to Jesus.
You seem like a very nice man, who wishes to follow God.  I choose to believe that it was not your intention to be deceiving by saying this verse was in reference to Jesus, but that you are merely passing on what you have been taught.
The logic presented was that since Jesus was created, at the point before his creation, God was without Jesus, and therefore Jesus is not the same as the almighty God.

I  backed up and read the entire proverb.
It would not be correct to equate all, if any, of the words of Proverb 8 where Wisdom = Jesus, but to make a point, let's consider it.
You use this text to posit that this shows that God created Jesus, so there was a point that there was God without Jesus.
However, let's apply the same logic to the face of the scriptural text.

… and I would truly like to get an answer from you for this question ...
** Do you read Proverb 8 to say that there was actually a point that God was without Wisdom?**
Code: 
If you say that God always had Wisdom, then you might agree that the language in Proverbs 8 regarding the creation of Wisdom, even if an allegory of Jesus, cannot in any way be a prooftext that there was a point at which God existed without Jesus.

If you say that there was a time where almighty God did not have Wisdom, I'm not sure we go from here since that God would be less than almighty.
Council of Nicaea (325) and Council of Constantinople (382)
Pre-325 showed misunderstandings in the nature of God himself (Arianism) where the nature of Christ was misunderstood.
The heresy of Arianism did not, however, teach the same theology that is taught by Jehovah’s Witnesses.
The council in 325 answered the question at hand and clarified the teaching regarding the nature of God.
The trinity is properly defined.
The Jehovah’s Witness of today will not agree with the Christian church that defined the trinity.
While you don’t want to say the church was in apostacy by this time, I believe this is actually what you think.
At the very least, you stated that the teaching of that council was not correct.

Pre-382 showed much disagreement regarding which Christian writings were inspired and which were not.
Some books that made it into the canon were hotly contested.
Some books that didn’t make it into the canon, were thought by many to be inspired.
There was much argument and discussion about this.
The council in 382 is where the matter was first settled and list of Christian writings was given and these books were defined as ‘inspired scripture’.
Not that other books weren’t useful or good, but they just weren’t to be considered inspired.
The Jehovah’s Witness trusts his bible as the inerrant Word of God.
You stated that there is no higher authority.
THAT is the trust you put in those men in 382 (in tradition actually) to tell you what writings make up the Word of God.
I tell you that these were men, but they were led by the Holy Spirit, to give us this teaching.
Whether you realize it or not, you agree. At least in practice, you agree.
Code: 
This leads to the one question I have for you on this matter…
** If this church was so very wrong about understanding the nature of God in 325, why do you at a later date trust this same (apparently wrong) church to tell you what the Word of God actually is?**
Code: 
Logically, if we consider that over time man got further away from God's truth (until 1870), we have three options:
	1 - Do not believe the church in 325 (trinity) nor in 382 (canon) … complete apostacy was before 325
	2 - Believe the church in 325 (trinity), but not in 382 (canon) … complete apostacy was between.
	3 - Believe the church in 325 (trinity), and in 382 (canon) … complete apostacy was after or never

Your theology of believing the church in 382, but not in 325 is logically inconsistent.

I do aim to show you that there was never a complete apostacy.
I still owe you my notes and scripture on why I believe Jesus founded only one church which is unified, visible, authoritative, apostolic, and still here.
I'm still working on putting this together.
Please be patient with me.
With love, brother
michel
give expecting nothing thereof…

michel
cazayoux@nortel.com

I shall work, above all, with a pure intention and with detachment from self, having always before my eyes the hour of death and the accounting of which I must render of time ill-spent, of talents unemployed, of good undone, and of empty pride in success, which is so fatal to the work of God.
 
cazayoux said:
Hello !!

I had my second meeting with a JW yesterday and he pointed to this verse to show that Jesus was created by God and was not God himself.

Proverbs 8:22
The LORD begot me, the first-born of his ways, the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago;

His point was that Jesus was created and not THE creator.
I told him that I’d have to study that scripture before giving an answer.

At first glance I see that the Proverb is actually talking about “Wisdom” personified.

However, a footnote in the NAB states this…
[22-31] Wisdom is of divine origin. It is here represented as a being which existed before all things (Proverb 8:22-26) and concurred with God when he planned and executed the creation of the universe, adorned it with beauty and variety, and established its wonderful order (Proverb 8:27-30). Here that plurality of divine Persons is foreshadowed which was afterward to be fully revealed when Wisdom in the Person of Jesus Christ became incarnate.

It seems that ‘Wisdom’ is, at least in part, associated with Jesus.
I need help articulating how this proverb either cannot, in every detail, be associated with Jesus … or at least how this passage does not deny the divinity of Jesus.

THANKS!!!

michel
Click to expand...

The passage is not talking about Christ. It seems to be, only because St. Paul calls Him Our Wisdom - but use of the same word, is not a reason to think the same subject-matter is in view: the St. Louis Cardinals have no say in the election of Popes; despite being Cardinals. 🙂​

The Blessed Trinity is foreshadowed in the passage in that Lady Wisdom in the Book of Proverbs is a Divine quality treated as a distinct person - this was quite common in the surrounding culture: the sun-god Shamash was accompanied by Misharu and Kittu, who personified his Righteousness & Equity.

Wisdom in Wisdom 24 (a passage applied in the Liturgy to the BVM) is the Torah personified.

With the passage in Proverbs, compare Job 38 & other passages about creation in the same book - the Jews had more to say on the subject than Genesis 1 & 2.

St. Athanasius deals with the passage in Proverbs, at great length:
 
cazayoux said:
Hello !!

I had my second meeting with a JW yesterday and he pointed to this verse to show that Jesus was created by God and was not God himself.

Proverbs 8:22
The LORD begot me, the first-born of his ways, the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago;

His point was that Jesus was created and not THE creator.
I told him that I’d have to study that scripture before giving an answer.

At first glance I see that the Proverb is actually talking about “Wisdom” personified.

However, a footnote in the NAB states this…
[22-31] Wisdom is of divine origin. It is here represented as a being which existed before all things (Proverb 8:22-26) and concurred with God when he planned and executed the creation of the universe, adorned it with beauty and variety, and established its wonderful order (Proverb 8:27-30). Here that plurality of divine Persons is foreshadowed which was afterward to be fully revealed when Wisdom in the Person of Jesus Christ became incarnate.

It seems that ‘Wisdom’ is, at least in part, associated with Jesus.
I need help articulating how this proverb either cannot, in every detail, be associated with Jesus … or at least how this passage does not deny the divinity of Jesus.

THANKS!!!

michel
Click to expand...
Simply have the Jehovah’s Witness read the whole chapter in context.

Pro 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
Pro 8:2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
Pro 8:3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.

After reading these verses, ask the Jehovah’s Witness one question:

Is Jesus Christ a male, or a female?

Then point out that the whole chapter is speaking about wisdom, from a metophoric perspective, and isn’t talking about Jesus.
 
cazayoux said:
Hello !!

I had my second meeting with a JW yesterday and he pointed to this verse to show that Jesus was created by God and was not God himself.

Proverbs 8:22
The LORD begot me, the first-born of his ways, the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago;
michel
Click to expand...
This verse does not imply that Jesus was created. It only reinforces the Catholic belief that the Second Person of the Trinity is eternally begotten of the Father. It says, “The Lord begot me”. It does not say “the Lord created me”.

By the way, Wisdom is one of the many meanings of “Logos”.

Paul
 
PaulDupre said:
This verse does not imply that Jesus was created. It only reinforces the Catholic belief that the Second Person of the Trinity is eternally begotten of the Father. It says, “The Lord begot me”. It does not say “the Lord created me”.

By the way, Wisdom is one of the many meanings of “Logos”.

Paul
Click to expand...
But in the 8th chapter of Proverbs, this person spoken of as ‘Wisdom’ is referred to in the female gender. It couldn’t possibly be in reference to Jesus. That’s why JWs don’t quote the first 26 verses.
 
Yeah, I always read the references to Wisdom, especially the Book of Wisdom, as the Holy Spirit who is often represented in the feminine.

Paul
 
JW’s had better explain Matt 10:28 while they are at it.

They believe the soul and body are the same.

They can’t deny the divinity of Christ.

Its been done long ago, and they think they are they are the only ones with “truth”.

What did Arius have then? Lies?🤷

They are very disturbed people.
 
notsmart said:
They believe the soul and body are the same.
Click to expand...
Saint Paul speaks about being absent from the body and being with the Lord. They can’t explain that one! 😃
notsmart said:
They can’t deny the divinity of Christ.
Click to expand...
But they still do. And they even went as far as to mistranslate the New Testament to do so.

World renown Greek scholar Julius Mantey took the watchtower to task for their rendering of several NT scriptures (John 1:1, mostly). Mantey used his knowledge of Greek scholarship to point out dozens of mistranslations to them.

And do you know what the watchtower’s response was to his letter?

“You’re entitled to YOUR opinion, and we reserve the right to maintain ours.” (paraphrased)
 
The Catholic Church has chosen this year to focus on Paul.

I see the need to now that I read your post.🙂

Lets pray and ask St Paul to help these people find Christ.
Chris_LaRock said:
Saint Paul speaks about being absent from the body and being with the Lord. They can’t explain that one! 😃

But they still do. And they even went as far as to mistranslate the New Testament to do so.

World renown Greek scholar Julius Mantey took the watchtower to task for their rendering of several NT scriptures (John 1:1, mostly). Mantey used his knowledge of Greek scholarship to point out dozens of mistranslations to them.

And do you know what the watchtower’s response was to his letter?

“You’re entitled to YOUR opinion, and we reserve the right to maintain ours.” (paraphrased)
Click to expand...
 
cazayoux;:
I’m copying the email I sent to the fellow this evening … Your theology of believing the church in 382, but not in 325 is logically inconsistent.

With love, brother
michel
Click to expand...
Hey cazayoux : ) I am a former JW. I though this letter you wrote was just outstanding. Well done. 👍
 
PaulDupre said:
This verse does not imply that Jesus was created. It only reinforces the Catholic belief that the Second Person of the Trinity is eternally begotten of the Father. It says, “The Lord begot me”. It does not say “the Lord created me”.

By the way, Wisdom is one of the many meanings of “Logos”.

Paul
Click to expand...
Hi Paul.

This is *exactly *what they propose.
Jesus was ‘begot’, therefore ‘created’, and didn’t exist before this time, and therefore cannot be the same as almighty God.

I brought them to John 10 to discuss.
While their version of the text was obviously altered in one spot “a god” versus “God”, the rest of the text was whole enough to make the point.

Jesus was about to be stoned for blasphemy.
Would they care if he was claiming to be ‘a god’? … enough to stone him for it? I suggested they wouldn’t. They would only consider it blasphemy and a stoning offense if Jesus was claiming to be almighty God Himself.

They really are into semantics with words … but most of them are words they’ve changed in their translation.

michel
 
cazayoux said:
Hi Paul.

This is *exactly *what they propose.
Jesus was ‘begot’, therefore ‘created’, and didn’t exist before this time, and therefore cannot be the same as almighty God.

I brought them to John 10 to discuss.
While their version of the text was obviously altered in one spot “a god” versus “God”, the rest of the text was whole enough to make the point.

Jesus was about to be stoned for blasphemy.
Would they care if he was claiming to be ‘a god’? … enough to stone him for it? I suggested they wouldn’t. They would only consider it blasphemy and a stoning offense if Jesus was claiming to be almighty God Himself.

They really are into semantics with words … but most of them are words they’ve changed in their translation.

michel
Click to expand...
Show them John 1:3. Ask them how Jesus could have created all ‘things’, and be a ‘thing’ Himself.

(Jehovah is called the First and the Last)

Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

(Jesus is called the First and the Last)

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

How can you have two Firsts and two Lasts? Jesus has to be God in order for these passages to make sense.
 
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