K of C and the Consecration

[Nance]

Do the Knights of Columbus have a special privilege that omits them from kneeling during the Consecration?
I for one find this extremely offensive and find no reason worthy of exemption for them not to…
Just to be clear I am aware that all who for health reasons are not required to kneel but we’ve all seen many healthy knights who are healthy and are quite capable of genuflecting.
I also think its scandalous to the faithful to see them dressed in uniform take part in the Mass and claim their faithfulness to God and remain in a sitting or standing position while the rest of us kneel.
When this question was put to several knight relatives and friends, we were told their sword gets in the way (folks this is lame, the sword is a ceremonial sword and isn’t sharp), another said, “oh I just follow the others.” Still another response was, “we’re not required to kneel.” ( yeah right)
I sure could use a clear explanation as to why this is!
thanks so much

 

[Brain]

they could at least hold a genuflection, that way they would be down and their sword wouldnt be in the way

 

[introibo]

I also don’t think they should be wearing hats in church. They’re laymen. Not clergy, not women. It’s disrespectful.

 

[scylla]

I am a Knight and this is something I will bring up at our next meeting. My first loyalty is to God and proper worship of Him.

Sorry if some or many of my brother Knights were not giving proper reverence to God.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Marauder]

I also don’t think they should be wearing hats in church. They’re laymen. Not clergy, not women. It’s disrespectful.

I can at least address this issue. The fact that lay men are not supposed to wear hats in church is a custom, not dogma, church rules, etc. Since it is only a custom there can be exceptions, etc. The reason Knights, Bishops, etc. are allowed to wear hats is because it is part of their “uniform”. If you watch the Knights, Bishops, etc. you will notice that they remove their “hats” during the consecration.

As an usher at the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception this comes up a lot because we are supposed to ask people to remove their hats upon entering the church. If we can tell that a person is wearing their hats for a reason other then just because they have forgotten to take it off we are supposed to say something like “Excuse me sir, it is our custom to remove hats within the church.” But if the person has a valid reason to wear the “hat” (i.e. they are Jewish, Muslum, etc.) they are allowed to continue wearing the “hat”.

 

[AlexV]

I’m a traditionalist, but I don’t care for all the (frankly often silly) ceremonial that has been invented for the “Knights of Columbus”.

 

[CRW]

I also don’t think they should be wearing hats in church. They’re laymen. Not clergy, not women. It’s disrespectful.

As in the military, when you are in uniform and acting as a guard, it is proper to wear the hat. Notice that the guards in the Vatican always have their headgear on. This is a symbol that they are ready and prepared to defend the Church, the sacraments and the Pope. The same holds tor for the K of C, when in a position of duty, they remain ready to defend the Church and Sacraments.

 

[Della]

From the GIRM:

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.53

We see that the norm is to kneel, but that exceptions are allowed. In the case of the KC Honor Guard, it is allowed for them to remain standing as a sign of reverence, but they do bow when called for. The 4th Degree Knights who do Honor Guards at Masses are especially trained according to the what they are allowed to do per the bishop of their diocese and/or the senior pastor of the parish. I know this because my dh is a 4th Degree Knight and only 4th Degree Knights wear the Honor Guard regalia.

 

[KnightforChrist]

As in the military, when you are in uniform and acting as a guard, it is proper to wear the hat. Notice that the guards in the Vatican always have their headgear on. This is a symbol that they are ready and prepared to defend the Church, the sacraments and the Pope. The same holds tor for the K of C, when in a position of duty, they remain ready to defend the Church and Sacraments.

Good Example !!!

 

[maryj]

I also don’t think they should be wearing hats in church. They’re laymen. Not clergy, not women. It’s disrespectful.

I am shocked. I have not only found that Knights of Columbus are the most respectful, God loving men, but will do anything they could to defend the church. It’s disrespectful ,does not belong in any statement in regards to a knight. In my parish, they always remove their hats during the consecration, they would as soon die as to be disrespectfulo to our Lord. If it did happen, I would ALWAYS assume that it was an oversight and not disrespect. Sorry for the rant.

 

[mosher]

Yes the 4th Degree Knights have special privilege to do as they do. They are allowed to follow the rules the govern military orders and knighthoods while at mass. The way in which they act while at mass in uniform is in accord with proper decorum. While in American culture we are not accustomed to this because we are not accustomed to orders of privilege that are associated with royal hierarchy the Vatican is very comfortable with it.

As long as they are following the proper rules and guidelines established for them then they are fine.

 

[m134e5]

they could at least hold a genuflection, that way they would be down and their sword wouldnt be in the way

To put the swords on, you snap them on the service baldric upside-down. They definitely can kneel with them on. Knights in regalia should behave perfectly in Mass- as they are an example to everyone else. If they cannot meet up to that expectation, they should wait awhile before serving on the honor guard.

 

[mosher]

To put the swords on, you snap them on the service baldric upside-down. They definitely can kneel with them on. Knights in regalia should behave perfectly in Mass- as they are an example to everyone else. If they cannot meet up to that expectation, they should wait awhile before serving on the honor guard.

However, while armed it is improper for them to genuflect or kneel. Remember that a genuflect is our means of saluting and as such the Knights follow a different method while in regalia (uniform) as is suitable for the occasion and their station. Remember that their decorum is approved by Rome and was approved well before the advent of the modern liturgy.

 

[Nance]

The 4th degree is about showmanship, not defending the church,
they don’t even have a real sword !!!..and I find them utterly irreverent at the Masses. Someone said something about standing during the consecration, does that mean sitting too??? Cuz I’ve seen them sitting.

While watching the funeral of JPII, in the background was the Swiss guard on his knees during the consecration…

I would think of all ppl who claim what the knights do they would want to increase faith in the church by their example…for instance, our priest has refused communion in the hand to the 4th degree knights wearing gloves.

My statements are strong but so is my fervor to do all I can to help restore the reverence we need in the Mass.
After all the most important thing is happening here on earth during the Mass and the 4th degree knights aren’t acknowledging that by their actions.

 

[blackrobe]

The 4th degree is about showmanship, not defending the church,
they don’t even have a real sword !!!..and I find them utterly irreverent at the Masses. Someone said something about standing during the consecration, does that mean sitting too??? Cuz I’ve seen them sitting.

While watching the funeral of JPII, in the background was the Swiss guard on his knees during the consecration…

I would think of all ppl who claim what the knights do they would want to increase faith in the church by their example…for instance, our priest has refused communion in the hand to the 4th degree knights wearing gloves.

My statements are strong but so is my fervor to do all I can to help restore the reverence we need in the Mass.
After all the most important thing is happening here on earth during the Mass and the 4th degree knights aren’t acknowledging that by their actions.

Your argument is with your bishop as the KoC do *nothing without the express permission and approval *of the presiding bishop.

JSA

 

[m134e5]

The 4th degree is about showmanship, not defending the church, they don’t even have a real sword !!!

The 4th degree is what you make of it. I have no doubt some do it just to show off. Some, including myself, love the Church and serve on the honor guard to show our support for the Church, and to show our bishops and priests that we are there for them.

and I find them utterly irreverent at the Masses. Someone said something about standing during the consecration, does that mean sitting too???

We kneel during the consecration. That is the way it should be.

While watching the funeral of JPII, in the background was the Swiss guard on his knees during the consecration…

Just as it should be…

I would think of all ppl who claim what the knights do they would want to increase faith in the church by their example…for instance, our priest has refused communion in the hand to the 4th degree knights wearing gloves.

Just because some 4th degree Knights behave inappropriately doesn’t make the whole group bad. Be thankful your priest didn’t go ahead and give the man communion in the hand while wearing gloves.

My statements are strong but so is my fervor to do all I can to help restore the reverence we need in the Mass.

Some 4th degree Knights have given the organization a bad reputation, but not all of them. The 4th degree Knights from my parish are some of the most devout, most reverent men I have ever known.

After all the most important thing is happening here on earth during the Mass and the 4th degree knights aren’t acknowledging that by their actions.

That is a shame- they should be models of reverence and piety to the parish community.

 

[dumspirospero]

http://pool.dylantree.com/img/gallery/misc_nonbob/685_donkey.jpg

Take what you will from the picture…

The 4th degree is about showmanship, not defending the church,
they don’t even have a real sword !!!..and I find them utterly irreverent at the Masses. Someone said something about standing during the consecration, does that mean sitting too??? Cuz I’ve seen them sitting.

While watching the funeral of JPII, in the background was the Swiss guard on his knees during the consecration…

I would think of all ppl who claim what the knights do they would want to increase faith in the church by their example…for instance, our priest has refused communion in the hand to the 4th degree knights wearing gloves.

My statements are strong but so is my fervor to do all I can to help restore the reverence we need in the Mass.
After all the most important thing is happening here on earth during the Mass and the 4th degree knights aren’t acknowledging that by their actions.

 

[dumspirospero]

Why don’t you get your facts straight before you attack an honorable organization like the KofC with just personal opinions and asinine statements. I will pray for you DURING the consecration…it appears you need my prayers.

The 4th degree is about showmanship, not defending the church,
they don’t even have a real sword !!!..and I find them utterly irreverent at the Masses. Someone said something about standing during the consecration, does that mean sitting too??? Cuz I’ve seen them sitting.

While watching the funeral of JPII, in the background was the Swiss guard on his knees during the consecration…

I would think of all ppl who claim what the knights do they would want to increase faith in the church by their example…for instance, our priest has refused communion in the hand to the 4th degree knights wearing gloves.

My statements are strong but so is my fervor to do all I can to help restore the reverence we need in the Mass.
After all the most important thing is happening here on earth during the Mass and the 4th degree knights aren’t acknowledging that by their actions.