Killing animals and the commandment to not kill

[Vince1022]

How can you say the Catholic church teaches something against God’s will?

I never said this. Why do you think I did?

No offense taken, thanks.

 

[Vince1022]

Read the church teaching on just wars. Even capital punishment is acceptable if there is no other way to protect others from the person.

I have read Church teaching on just wars. As I served in the U.S. Navy, this was very important to me.

So what’s your point on suggesting I read teaching on just war?

I don’t see the connection to capital punishment as it applies to this specific thread. Can you clarify how the OP’s question involves both just war and capital punishment? thank you.

The extreme hypothetical situation you note is just that: extreme and hypothetical. I don’t see how it helps the topic of this Thread.

Similarly, what does police being armed have to do with this thread?

 

[thistle]

Well, maybe yes. If you are saying God gave us the right to self defense, then I think it’s completely logical to ask why Jesus did not invoke this God-given right.

So you didn’t know that Jesus was to fulfill the prophecies by letting himself be taken, handed over to the unbelievers, and crucified.
You think he should have defended himself to avoid being captured and killed and thus deny all of us the chance for salvation???

 

[JohnMPhilomena]

I never said this. Why do you think I did?

No offense taken, thanks.

OK here’s how it went down:

thistle said:

The Church (authorised by God) teaches we have the right to self defence, and to kill a person if that is the minimum force required for self defence or defence of others.

and then you (Vince1022) said:

Again, please, reference? Where exactly does the Catholic Church teach this? Thank you.

So my post about just wars and capital punishment were intended to show you where the Catholic Church teaches that killing in defense of your self or others is justified.

My example, although extremely unlikely, was intended to make you think that perhaps you, in your own mind, could justify killing.

Why do police carry guns? - to defend themselves and others. i.e. to kill if necessary.

Obviously Jesus would have had the right to defend himself and He could have come down from the cross. But that was never His plan.

 

[Vince1022]

So you didn’t know that Jesus was to fulfill the prophecies by letting himself be taken, handed over to the unbelievers, and crucified.
You think he should have defended himself to avoid being captured and killed and thus deny all of us the chance for salvation???

I was simply responding to your claim that God gave us (humans) the right to self defense. Your post #54 among others. Given your supposition, which I neither agreed nor disagreed with, I was simply asking what I thought was a logical question. If God gave humans the right of self-defense, why didn’t Jesus act according to this right? Was it a right, or a duty? If God gave humans the right, as you say, why didn’t Jesus act on that right? If Jesus didn’t act on it, why should any Christian?

I didn’t say anything about whether Jesus’ response to his capture and death had implications for our salvation, you’re introducing a new thought to this thread with that idea.

 

[Vince1022]

OK here’s how it went down:

thistle said:

and then you (Vince1022) said:

So my post about just wars and capital punishment were intended to show you where the Catholic Church teaches that killing in defense of your self or others is justified.

My example, although extremely unlikely, was intended to make you think that perhaps you, in your own mind, could justify killing.

Why do police carry guns? - to defend themselves and others. i.e. to kill if necessary.

Obviously Jesus would have had the right to defend himself and He could have come down from the cross. But that was never His plan.

Thanks.

Not all police carry guns.

I’m still waiting for Thistle’s response to my question about why Jesus didn’t respond in accord with this apparently God-given right.

 

[thistle]

Thanks.

Not all police carry guns.

I’m still waiting for Thistle’s response to my question about why Jesus didn’t respond in accord with this apparently God-given right.

Either you are a very young person or English is not your first language because I answered your question in my previous post. Also another poster answered this question but you seem to be in a world of your own.
Don’t you understand the mission of Jesus. He came to redeem us. Jesus had to fulfill the prophecies. It was not his plan to prevent himself being captured and crucified.

Also I don’t understand why you keep saying self-defence is an apparent God-given right.
You know it is a God-given right because it is a Church teaching or are you now changing your mind and denying the Church teaching that we have a RIGHT to self defence, including taking a life if that is necessary for self-defence.

 

[Vince1022]

Don’t you understand the mission of Jesus. He came to redeem us. Jesus had to fulfill the prophecies. It was not his plan to prevent himself being captured and crucified.

You said something like this before, but didn’t give any reference for you claim. Can you clarify? Thanks.

Also I don’t understand why you keep saying self-defence is an apparent God-given right.

I didn’t. You did.

 

[thistle]

You said something like this before, but didn’t give any reference for you claim. Can you clarify? Thanks.

I didn’t. You did.

Is that a joke??

Are you telling everyone in these forums that you as a Catholic had no idea what the mission of Jesus was? YES or NO???
The Gospels and Church teachings are the reference or have you not heard of these either?

Secondly, are you still saying that we have the right to self-defence but that right does not include killing someone if necessary for that self defence or are you claiming that we have the right to self defence including the right to kill someone if necessary but that right is given to us by the Church but does not have the authority of God behind it?
Former, latter or a third option?

 

[Vince1022]

Are you telling everyone in these forums that you as a Catholic had no idea what the mission of Jesus was? YES or NO???

No.

The Gospels and Church teachings are the reference or have you not heard of these either?

Yes, I have heard of both.

Secondly, are you still saying that we have the right to self-defence but that right does not include killing someone if necessary for that self defence or are you claiming that we have the right to self defence including the right to kill someone if necessary but that right is given to us by the Church but does not have the authority of God behind it?
Former, latter or a third option?

The Church acknowledges the right to self defense, which may include killing a person. The Church does not teach that exercising such a right is obligatory.

 

[thistle]

No.

Yes, I have heard of both.

The Church acknowledges the right to self defense, which may include killing a person. The Church does not teach that exercising such a right is obligatory.

Why are you acting so silly? Don’t you like to be shown to be wrong? Be humble.
Read the entire thread.
Who said it is obligatory to kill someone? Nobody, which makes it crazy for you to keep saying its not obligatory. Why would you keep repeating that when nobody has said it is obligatory.
What we have all been saying is that we have the right to self defence, which includes the right to kill a person, if necessary, in that self defence.

If your family is attacked it is up to you if you stand by, do nothing and let them be killed.

 

[Vince1022]

Why are you acting so silly? Don’t you like to be shown to be wrong? Be humble.

I have no problem being wrong. I don’t intend to act silly, sorry if you think I did. You seem to accuse a number of posters on this thread of being silly. You may be right, but I tend to presume that everyone posting is sincere and honest.

Read the entire thread.
Who said it is obligatory to kill someone? Nobody, which makes it crazy for you to keep saying its not obligatory. Why would you keep repeating that when nobody has said it is obligatory.

You are the one who said God gave us the right to kill humans in self-defense. You’re introducing this thought begs the question of whether such a supposed right is obligatory or optional.

What we have all been saying is that we have the right to self defence, which includes the right to kill a person, if necessary, in that self defence.

If your family is attacked it is up to you if you stand by, do nothing and let them be killed.

And I am simply asking, where does the Catholic Church teach this? Or is this just your opinion/thought? Thanks for any clarification.

 

[thistle]

I have no problem being wrong. I don’t intend to act silly, sorry if you think I did. You seem to accuse a number of posters on this thread of being silly. You may be right, but I tend to presume that everyone posting is sincere and honest.

You are the one who said God gave us the right to kill humans in self-defense. You’re introducing this thought begs the question of whether such a supposed right is obligatory or optional.

And I am simply asking, where does the Catholic Church teach this? Or is this just your opinion/thought? Thanks for any clarification.

In other words you have not read my previous posts in this thread.

First, I always said self defence, including killing, if necessary was a right. I never said I thought that meant it was obligatory. It was you who introduced that thought (check your posts).

Second, here AGAIN in this thread is the Church teaching:

CCC 2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. “The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not.”

CCC 2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s.