King of Darkness?

[abonin9000]

So I’ve been thinking… if Satan is the Prince of Darkness, who is the King? If God created Lucifer with the knowledge that Lucifer would become evil - God being all-knowing - wouldn’t that make God himself the King of Darkness? And thus, isn’t it God’s fault that Satan - and by association, evil - even exists in the first place?

 

[Layman]

The key thing is free will.

If we have it, then God is not going to interfere when we do evil.
If we don’t have free will, then what’s the point of the Creation?

There’s not much known about Satan/Lucifer. If he had free will, then, whether God knew in advance or not what he was going to do, he would be allowed to exercise it.

And you’ll note what happened to him and to every being that does evil. The Creation is set up so that good fights evil and evil fights evil. We, as incarnate beings, thereby each gain a unique understanding of the Creation and God, according to our abilities. We can draw near to Him, or away.

The alternative is predestination. What would be the point of going to the trouble of creating the Universe if you were going to directly control everything that happened in it? Much more interesting to let it evolve under a set of basic rules.

[Note: these are my opinions and I’m not a theologian].

 

[LaLucia]

I think that God rules the prince of darkness… God is the king of the light who can keep the prince of darkness away from us. I don’t think there is a King of darkness because God is stronger.

 

[TheDoctor]

So I’ve been thinking… if Satan is the Prince of Darkness, who is the King? If God created Lucifer with the knowledge that Lucifer would become evil - God being all-knowing - wouldn’t that make God himself the King of Darkness? And thus, isn’t it God’s fault that Satan - and by association, evil - even exists in the first place?

Where did you find the title “Prince of Darkness” for Satan?

 

[GeorgeSword]

I thought Dracula was the Prince of Darkness

 

[thistle]

So I’ve been thinking… if Satan is the Prince of Darkness, who is the King? If God created Lucifer with the knowledge that Lucifer would become evil - God being all-knowing - wouldn’t that make God himself the King of Darkness? And thus, isn’t it God’s fault that Satan - and by association, evil - even exists in the first place?

Where in the Bible does it say Satan is “the Prince of Darkness”?

 

[LaLucia]

We have a choice to be good or bad. If we chose to be bad to others then the devil will help us to be evil and go into the darkness of evil.

If we as people choose to always be good to others then Satan would not be able to tempt us with doing evil to others. It is the people with corupt hearts who keep Satan around us and it is not God’s fault.

We people need to not dwell in the darkness of satan… we need to try to stay in God’s light of goodness and protection from evil.

Halloween is coming and some people love to invite the evil darkness into their homes.
You walk into their homes and you can feel the darkness. Almost everybody wants to be a devil, a goul, a vampire, a witch, or anything scary. Some people like to be scared by evil happenings and others like to attract the darkness of satan.

So you see… it is people who attract evil into their lives. Or they curse other people so that something bad can happen to them.

I try to stay away from the darkness of evil and I always try to stay in God’s grace and light of protection. It works for me.

 

[TraceG]

I received an email today that I wanted to post here, coincidentally toward the end of the email message it may shed some light so to speak as an answer to OP’s question. It’s a philosophical email as well. Have to post in two parts.

GOD
vs. Science
A
science professor began his school year with a lecture to the students,
‘Let me explain the problem science has with religion.’ The atheist
professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his
new students to stand.

‘You’re
a Christian, aren’t you, son?’ ‘Yes sir,’ the student said.

‘So you believe in God?’ ‘Absolutely.’

‘Is God good?’ ‘Sure! God’s good.’

‘Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?’
‘Yes.’

‘Are you good or evil?’
‘The Bible says I’m evil.’

The professor grins knowingly. ‘Aha! The Bible!’ He considered for a moment.
‘Here’s one for you. Let’s say there’s a sick person over here and you can
cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?’

‘Yes sir, I would.’

‘So you’re good…!’ ‘I wouldn’t say that.’

‘But why not say that? You’d help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most
of us would if we could. But God doesn’t.’

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. ‘He doesn’t, does he?
My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to
Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that
one?’

The student remains silent.

‘No, you can’t, can you?’ the professor said. He took a sip of water from a
glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

‘Let’s start again, young fella. Is God good?’
‘Er…yes,’ the student says.

‘Is Satan good?’
The student doesn’t hesitate on this one. ‘No.’

‘Then where does Satan come from?’
The student falters. ‘From God’

‘That’s right. God made Satan, didn’t he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this
world?’
‘Yes, sir.’

‘Evil’s everywhere, isn’t it? And God did make everything,
correct?’

‘Yes.’

‘So who created evil?’ The professor continued, ‘If God created everything,
then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle
that our works define who we are, then God is
evil.’

Again,
the student had no answer. ‘Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred?
Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this
world?’

The
student squirms on his feet. ‘Yes.’

‘So
who created them?’

The student did not answer again, so the
professor repeated his question. ‘Who created them?’ There is still no
answer. Suddenly the lecturer broke away to pace in front of the
classroom. The class was mesmerized. ‘Tell me,’ he continues onto another
student. ‘Do you believe in Jesus Christ , son?’

The
student’s voice betrays him and cracks. ‘Yes, professor, I do.’

The old man stopped pacing. ‘Science says you have five
senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever
seen Jesus ?’

‘No sir. I’ve never seen Him.’

‘Then tell us if you’ve ever heard your Jesus ?’

‘No, sir, I have not.’

‘Have you ever felt your
Jesus , tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus ? Have you ever had any
sensory perception of Jesus Christ , or God for that matter?’

‘No, sir, I’m afraid I haven’t.’
‘Yet you still
believe in him?’
‘Yes.’

‘According to the rules of
empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn’t
exist. What do you say to that, son?’

‘Nothing,’ the student
replied. ‘I only have my faith.’
‘Yes, faith,’ the professor
repeated. ‘And that is the problem science has with God. There is no
evidence, only faith.’

At the back of the room another
student stood quietly for a moment before asking a question of His own.
‘Professor, is there such thing as heat?’

‘Yes,’ the professor replied. ‘There’s heat.’

‘And is there such a thing as cold?’
‘Yes, son, there’s cold too.’
‘No sir, there isn’t.’

The professor turned to face the student,
obviously interested. The room suddenly became very quiet. The student
began to explain. ‘You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat,
mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we
don’t have anything called ‘cold’. We can hit up to 458 degrees below
zero, which is no heat, but we can’t go any further after that. There is
no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the
lowest -458 degrees.’

 

[TraceG]

‘Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total
absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the
absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal
units because heat is energy… Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just
the absence of it.’

‘What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?’

‘Yes,’ the professor replied without hesitation. ‘What is night if it isn’t darkness?’

‘You’re wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is
the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright
light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have
nothing and it’s called darkness, isn’t it? That’s the meaning we use to
define the word.’

‘In reality, darkness isn’t. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn’t you?’

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of
him. This would be a good semester. ‘So what point are you making, young
man?’

‘Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical
premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be
flawed.’

The professor’s face cannot hide his surprise this
time… ‘Flawed? Can you explain how?’

‘You are working on the premise of duality,’ the student explains. ‘You argue that there is
life and then there’s death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the
concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science
can’t even explain a thought.’

‘Science uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully
understood either one… To view death as the opposite of life is to be
ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death
is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.’

‘Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a
monkey?’

‘If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.’

‘Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?’

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument
is going. A very good semester, indeed.

‘Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion,
sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?’

‘To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me
give you an example of what I mean.’

The student looks
around the room. ‘Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the
professor’s brain?’ ‘Is there anyone here who has ever heard the
professor’s brain, felt the professor’s brain, touched or smelt the
professor’s brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the
established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science
says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.’

‘So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?’

The professor just stares at the student, his face
unreadable. Finally, after what seemed an eternity, the old man
answered. ‘I guess you’ll have to take them on faith.’

‘Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,’ the
student continued. ‘Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?’

Now uncertain, the professor responded, ‘Of course, there
is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man’s inhumanity to
man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world.
These manifestations are nothing else but evil.’

To this the student replied, ‘Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist
unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It
is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe
the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what
happens when man does not have God’s love present in his heart. It’s like
the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when
there is no light.’

The professor sat down.

 

[gmcbroom]

This should be stickied to the top. It’s that good.

 

[Jehoshua]

Excellent post.

It perfectly explains what we should all understand about the nature of evil. This also incidentally confirms free will, as since evil is not a substantive reality through free will one has the ability to reject God, and therefore have and manifest an absense of the divinity.

To circumvent the possibility of someone using omniscience to rebut my point, ill put forward the possibility that God’s omniscience in regards to knowing future actions, is in knowing all the possible outcomes that may occur from any given choice. If this is true then the present in effect is the moment of totality the “now” moment when everything is happening, and the future is one of inifinite potential variety which simultaneously exists until a choice in the “now” causes a new set of possibilities and eliminates the futures of alternative choices. This circumvents the argument that God in knowing what a man was doing would have prevented him from making a wrong choice (like the adam and eve thing) because God did in fact know what he’d do, he did not prevent his choice simply because that all choices were possible, and until such moment as the choice was made all alternative choices were possible. At the moment of Eves choice for example she could have choisen to reject Satan because it was equally likely until the moment the choice was determined.

This argument i believe confirms freewill, and omniscience, and allows for the existence of “evil”. Now all i need to do is know the church dogma on the issue.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

Excellent post.

It perfectly explains what we should all understand about the nature of evil. This also incidentally confirms free will, as since evil is not a substantive reality through free will one has the ability to reject God, and therefore have and manifest an absense of the divinity.

To circumvent the possibility of someone using omniscience to rebut my point, ill put forward the possibility that God’s omniscience in regards to knowing future actions, is in knowing all the possible outcomes that may occur from any given choice. If this is true then the present in effect is the moment of totality the “now” moment when everything is happening, and the future is one of inifinite potential variety which simultaneously exists until a choice in the “now” causes a new set of possibilities and eliminates the futures of alternative choices. This circumvents the argument that God in knowing what a man was doing would have prevented him from making a wrong choice (like the adam and eve thing) because God did in fact know what he’d do, he did not prevent his choice simply because that all choices were possible, and until such moment as the choice was made all alternative choices were possible. At the moment of Eves choice for example she could have choisen to reject Satan because it was equally likely until the moment the choice was determined.

This argument i believe confirms freewill, and omniscience, and allows for the existence of “evil”. Now all i need to do is know the church dogma on the issue.

I disagree with your description of God’s omniscience as not being what the church means by omniscience. God is eternal, not imprisoned in time. He ‘sees’ the outcome of the choice and the birth of the man who makes the choice at the same ‘time’. I use the terms ‘sees’ and ‘time’ because we don’t have words that describe eternity.

In your example, God only sees all possible outcomes but doesn’t know the actual one. The church teaching (not dogma) is that God knows all, not only all possibilities.

IMO God’s greatest gifts to us are life and grace. Before that man’s conception, God sees that the man will choose wrongly despite the gift of grace. Should God withhold the gift of life? Should God only allow those to exist who will choose Him?

Should God have refrained from creating Adam and Eve? Should he have created Susie and Burt who would have chosen rightly? Where would that leave us? Potential children of Adam and Eve who would never exist. Humanity would never have needed a savior; Jesus would never have come. And so on…

Some things can’t be explained to our satisfaction in this life. It is what it is.

 

[Jehoshua]

I understand your point.

---

My previous post is simply my thought of what God’s omniscience may compose of while still permitting free will, and refuting some arguments ive heard from atheists about the issue.

---

I am currently unable to access a priest or church to find out conclusively and definitively the churches teaching (I have to resort to an online mass as a measure to get some level of participation). If anyone can provide for me the official, exact, definitive and true teaching on omniscience the church holds i would be most grateful. You said what the teaching was, but id like to see it myself to be sure.

As before what my post consists of is simply my own limited analysis of omniscience considering my current inability to access the sources. Likewise if anyone can tell me a legal site to download the catechism id be most grateful, ive been limited in ability till very recently to access the wider internet beyond the neccesities of work.

 

[Jehoshua]

I’ve done a bit of thinking on it and im sttruggling over what i think is your reply negating free will.

Because if God does know every choice we will make, that implies a set future course from which an individual can;t deviate. Which by default negates the ability to have free will because you cannot decide your own choices.

Im not sure your fully understanding my concept, which is simply what youd call a thought experiment, on the possible nature of omniscience (its not like i take it as my own personal dogma) as what im thinking is fairly complex and difficult to describe.

Looking back however i don;t see how it negates eternity, as all the futures are equally possible, equally co-existent until the present advances forward erasing all but one of the infinite option, yet creating infinite more options. For free will to be true, and for God to know what we’d do, the best possibility in my mind, considering said inability to access a higher authority, is that God does know through knowing all the coexistent futures simultaneously as they are all equally existent.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

I’ve done a bit of thinking on it and im sttruggling over what i think is your reply negating free will.

Because if God does know every choice we will make, that implies a set future course from which an individual can;t deviate. Which by default negates the ability to have free will because you cannot decide your own choices.

A lot of people have problems with that.

Just because God knows what a person will choose before the person makes the choice, does not imply that the person lacks free will. All it implies is that God is all-knowing. In fact, if God did not know what choice the person would make, it would show a defect in the knowledge of God.

Jehoshua:

Im not sure your fully understanding my concept, which is simply what youd call a thought experiment, on the possible nature of omniscience (its not like i take it as my own personal dogma) as what im thinking is fairly complex and difficult to describe.

If I understood your concept, it is also true in a sense. It is true that God not only knows the outcome of every possible choice the person can make, as you said, but also the actual choice the person will make.

Jehoshua:

Looking back however i don;t see how it negates eternity, as all the futures are equally possible, equally co-existent until the present advances forward erasing all but one of the infinite option, yet creating infinite more options. For free will to be true, and for God to know what we’d do, the best possibility in my mind, considering said inability to access a higher authority, is that God does know through knowing all the coexistent futures simultaneously as they are all equally existent.

He does. He knows all possible choices and their outcome (“all co-existent futures”, as you put it), as well as the choice the person will actually make. You have to remember that God is outside of time. “Time” itself is a creation of God, and God views it all at once. I sometimes describe it this way…

If you take a ruler and place it in front of you. Consider every inch on the ruler to represent a certain period of time - say 1,000 years. If you are on the 3rd inch, those inches before represent the past, while the inches in front of you represent the future. But God views the entire ruler at one time, as you would from above. Therefore, God knows in advance - without causing it - what each person will choose before they actually make the choice.

 

[WarriorofJesus]

Greetings,

First of all I would like to point out that Satan is the king of darkness and responsible for all the hatred, violence, disease, wars and hunger that exists within the world. Anything asociated with evil, darkness, violence and hatred all comes from one being who started it all in the first place: Satan the original serpent. He is the prince and king of darkness and the most cruel, terrible and horrible being that exists within the universe. For it was his rebellion against God that started it all and convinced other angels to join him in his rebellion. The creations of the Lord that he hates the most are HUMANS. He is constantly trying to keep them apart from God’s love and provoking them to commit sin. Once HUMANS are kept under sin, Satan gains power over them and starts to control them. That makes the HUMANS under Satans control because of their state of sin, to eventually fall in the road of destruction and hell like the Devil wishes to occur. He wishes to pull down to hell as many souls as he can so that they can all experience and have the same fate as he has: an eternal life in the blazing hot fires of hell.

God is the king of light and the most powerful being in the universe. He has unlimited power and the only one who can humiliate and control Satan just by using his will on him. Satan trembles and freaks out whenever he remembers and feels Gods power and knows that he can do anything as he wishes for he is the creator of Satan in the first place. God’s inmense love for his creatures and creations made him to give them the gift of free-will. They can choose by themselves what they want to do and choose as they wish. Remember to always keep yourself within God’s love and do his will for that is the only chance you have to keep yourself from sin and assure that Satan is away from you for good. May the Lord bless you.