Kneeling after the Agnus Dei

[Brendan]

PGA, remember that in the United States we do kneel after the Agnus Dei. Furthermore, Cardnal Arinze is well aware of that since he made note of it. Are you saying that he is wrong, then?

benedictgal,

I think you and PGA are talking past each other.

Each bishop DOES have the authority to set posture after the Agnus Dei until the personal reception of the Eucharist.

That is in the GIRM

“In the dioceses of the United States of America, [the faithful] should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the diocesan bishop determines otherwise”

So yes, the diocese in the US kneel, but the bishop has the authority (approved by a recognito) to specify another posture.

But the bishop may only specify a posture up to personal reception of the Eucharist.

And THAT is what Cardinal Arinze is talking about. After you return to your seat, you may sit, kneel or stand, as you personally see fit to do.

 

[jdunn41]

Thanks everyone for the (name removed by moderator)ut.

Here’s the reason it’s causing so much confusion for me - the church I was raised in is in the same archdiocese. And that’s why I can’t understand why one church does it one way and the other does it another.

Also I’ll give the thumbs up to singing the Latin (we do Sanctus and Agnus Dei) during Lent. I kind of wish they did it year round but oh well.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

Thanks everyone for the (name removed by moderator)ut.

Here’s the reason it’s causing so much confusion for me - the church I was raised in is in the same archdiocese. And that’s why I can’t understand why one church does it one way and the other does it another.

Also I’ll give the thumbs up to singing the Latin (we do Sanctus and Agnus Dei) during Lent. I kind of wish they did it year round but oh well.

They are doing it differently because of Pastor’s who refuse to implement changes in their parish.

As has been discussed in this thread, the bishop has the authority to ask for standing after the Agnus Dei before the reception of Communion. Our bishop DID, in fact, ask for this. Some pastors responded by telling their congregations “I’m sure you’ve heard about some changes to the mass - well nothing is going to change here. Keep doing what you have been doing.”

Direct disobedience.

 

[THurifer2]

Our bishop DID, in fact, ask for this. Some pastors responded by telling their congregations “I’m sure you’ve heard about some changes to the mass - well nothing is going to change here. Keep doing what you have been doing.”

Direct disobedience.

Interesting. Did the bishop use binding terminology or did he make it as if suggestion?

Sounds like some disobedience going on. I do wonder why a bishop would request standing? There has to be some reason for it…

 

[THurifer2]

the bishop has the authority to ask for standing after the Agnus Dei before the reception of Communion. .

I did notice this though…a bishop does not have the authority to forbid people kneeling for communion so I guess there is a slight time period when people can kneel after the agnus dei and the reception of communion.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

Interesting. Did the bishop use binding terminology or did he make it as if suggestion?

Sounds like some disobedience going on. I do wonder why a bishop would request standing? There has to be some reason for it…

The terminology was binding. At workshops throughout the diocese that were mandated for clergy and laity working in music/liturgy roles in parishes, both the director of the Liturgy office and the bishop himself spoke on how the 2002 GIRM was going to be implemented here. Everyone was alerted to the provision saying that the bishop may make standing the norm in his diocese and they were informed that our bishop had chosen to do so.

As to why he requested standing: The previous bishop was, in all matters, not only liturgy - quite differential to the people he had put in positions of authority (i.e. directors of offices, etc.). He almost always sought and took their counsel before making decisions. So the director of the office for pastoral liturgy at the time - who is quite well known, whether you agree or disagree with him on many things - advised the bishop that in light of the legitimate option, as a liturgist, his counsel was that standing made more sense. The bishop took that counsel and acted on it.

There has been some talk of the current bishop changing it. I think he may prefer to - but I don’t think he will. In as much as the option to mandate standing IS legitimate and in line with the GIRM, and because of all the catechesis and, quite frankly, problems we went through to mandate the standing, I don’t think he wants to confuse the people and turn their world upside down again by making yet another change to the liturgy. Of course this is just based on indications I have gotten. I can’t after all, get inside his head. Maybe at some point in the future he will make the change once more.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

I did notice this though…a bishop does not have the authority to forbid people kneeling for communion so I guess there is a slight time period when people can kneel after the agnus dei and the reception of communion.

That would be kind of “nit-picking” to get around a norm that one doesn’t like though.

And really, no one should be kneeling for communion. All that it says is that one can’t be DENIED communion for doing so. But it does say they should be counseled on the reason for the standing norm.

 

[THurifer2]

I don’t think he wants to confuse the people and turn their world upside down again by making yet another change to the liturgy. .

You are kidding …rigth …Turn their world upside down?

As far as the nobody should be kneeling comment…I am assuming you meant nobody should be kneeling except for the churches that use the altar rail…which may not be very common in some parts but seems to be making a comeback in my neck of the woods…there is talk about it at my parish.

Anyway those standing to recieve in churches that use the altar rail would not be following posture of the congregation…but however cannot be mandated to kneel…

 

[catholic79]

I do wonder why a bishop would request standing? There has to be some reason for it…

Communion takes up to much time if people kneel after the A.D. and then have to stand to walk up to communion that’s the reason we were given anyway.

 

[japhy]

Communion takes up to much time if people kneel after the A.D. and then have to stand to walk up to communion that’s the reason we were given anyway.

Balderdash. While the pew in front of you is walking to the aisle, your pew stands up. That’s how my parish does it. This “too much time” stuff is absolutely ridiculous. Do they actually time this? If they want a fast method that still gives people time for personal reflection before and after receiving, use the communion rail. Seriously!

 

[catholic79]

Balderdash. While the pew in front of you is walking to the aisle, your pew stands up. That’s how my parish does it. This “too much time” stuff is absolutely ridiculous. Do they actually time this? If they want a fast method that still gives people time for personal reflection before and after receiving, use the communion rail. Seriously!

Please know I agree with you, I HATE having to stand at this point in the mass. It makes me sick that the “good reason” we were given as to why we stand, is because mass might take 30 seconds longer if we kneel.

Our Bishop has also requested that we stand after communion to show that we are standing with Christ, apparently one can not kneel with Christ. Our priest, God Bless him, does say after everyone has received “please kneel or sit for a moment prayer.” However the only people who kneel are the ones who began kneeling immediately after returning from communion.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

You are kidding …rigth …Turn their world upside down?

As far as the nobody should be kneeling comment…I am assuming you meant nobody should be kneeling except for the churches that use the altar rail…which may not be very common in some parts but seems to be making a comeback in my neck of the woods…there is talk about it at my parish.

Anyway those standing to recieve in churches that use the altar rail would not be following posture of the congregation…but however cannot be mandated to kneel…

Well, it wouldn’t turn MY world upside down - nor would it a lot of other people.

But don’t underestimate the confusion surrounding this issue here. The media got in on the act, reporting things not quite as they were - misinformation spread - FINALLY, after a LONG, turbulent time, the issue was throughly explained to everyone and everyone calmed down.

It would really create a lot of new issues to erase all that. The bishop and liturgy director would then be in a really uncomfortable position of having to answer the question of why the old bishop chose one thing but the new one is reversing it - and did the theology we were taught change?

Don’t underestimate how big of an issue this was here. The waters finally calmed and everyone is non-emotional and calmed down. With the many other issues our bishop is confronting (fallout from sex abuse scandal, etc), I just don’t think he’s ready to push an issue like this, since the standing isn’t even an abuse and it is allowed by the GIRM.

 

[THurifer2]

Well, it wouldn’t turn MY world upside down - nor would it a lot of other people.

But don’t underestimate the confusion surrounding this issue here. The media got in on the act, reporting things not quite as they were - misinformation spread - FINALLY, after a LONG, turbulent time, the issue was throughly explained to everyone and everyone calmed down.

It would really create a lot of new issues to erase all that. The bishop and liturgy director would then be in a really uncomfortable position of having to answer the question of why the old bishop chose one thing but the new one is reversing it - and did the theology we were taught change?

Don’t underestimate how big of an issue this was here. The waters finally calmed and everyone is non-emotional and calmed down. With the many other issues our bishop is confronting (fallout from sex abuse scandal, etc), I just don’t think he’s ready to push an issue like this, since the standing isn’t even an abuse and it is allowed by the GIRM.

Fair enough sounds like a touchy subject. Smaller diocese here and I guess small towners just like the “monarchial” method of rule. Because the bishop says so works around here. But here and there are two different places so it seems.

 

[zab]

PGA, remember that in the United States we do kneel after the Agnus Dei. Furthermore, Cardnal Arinze is well aware of that since he made note of it. Are you saying that he is wrong, then?

Cardinal Arinze acknowledges that bishops can make the decision whether we should kneel or stand after the Agnus Dei but not to make a big deal of it if people choose to kneel when they have directed the people to stand. Most of the people in our parish follow the direction of our bishop to remain standing. A few choose to kneel, and I know that is permissible. I choose to be obedient to the bishop’s direction, not as a matter of “blind obedience” but as a matter of respect for the authority of my bishop.