Kneeling during the consecration

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Apryl

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There has been much discussion on the holding of hands during the Our Father, and other things that would bring the GIRM in as our staple.

I have been doing something that, according to what I’m reading on these boards, is actually wrong… but I don’t think I’m willing to change. As a matter of fact, I know I’m not.

It’s kneeling during the Transubstiation.

Personally, I believe that it is a very important part of the mass, and this means so much to me, that when I’m visiting a church that does not have kneelers, I still kneel, even if it means on the floor. This is not a problem to me.

However, I understand that where I’m messing up, being wrong, is by standing out from the crowd.

I try to do it discreetly. I make sure that those that are next to me are aware that I’m going to kneel (I didn’t once, and had people asking me ‘are you alright’)

I realize that there has been a move in some dioceses to have us stand during the Eucharistic Prayers, but I just can’t bring myself to not kneeling: a few years ago, this would have been a non-issue, but today, I really do care about what is going on in mass… but I also want to do right.

I’m in a quandry. At my home church, we have kneelers and we kneel. No discussion there.

I wonder: should I ask MY priest what I should do? Or should I talk to the priest where I’m visiting? At least to warn him that I plan to kneel.

Then there’s the problem of what do I do should someone say to me, ‘you are not to kneel’? As I am not faced with that immediately, my mind tells me that I would not attend that mass. But I’m still stuck, as I would hate to miss mass for obstinence.

I would say that I try to be obedient, but I have to admit that at this time, on this point, today, I’m not willing to be obedient.

:confused:

Sheesh… hopefully, I won’t have to really deal with this for a few weeks. I do ask that every one please be kind and pray for me that I soften my ways, and I’m willing to be obedient should this come up again.
 
I was under the impression that we are still required to kneel at Consecration regardless of what directive the Bishop requires.
 
Apryl said:
There has been much discussion on the holding of hands during the Our Father, and other things that would bring the GIRM in as our staple.

I have been doing something that, according to what I’m reading on these boards, is actually wrong… but I don’t think I’m willing to change. As a matter of fact, I know I’m not.

It’s kneeling during the Transubstiation.

Personally, I believe that it is a very important part of the mass, and this means so much to me, that when I’m visiting a church that does not have kneelers, I still kneel, even if it means on the floor. This is not a problem to me.

However, I understand that where I’m messing up, being wrong, is by standing out from the crowd.

I try to do it discreetly. I make sure that those that are next to me are aware that I’m going to kneel (I didn’t once, and had people asking me ‘are you alright’)

I realize that there has been a move in some dioceses to have us stand during the Eucharistic Prayers, but I just can’t bring myself to not kneeling: a few years ago, this would have been a non-issue, but today, I really do care about what is going on in mass… but I also want to do right.

I’m in a quandry. At my home church, we have kneelers and we kneel. No discussion there.

I wonder: should I ask MY priest what I should do? Or should I talk to the priest where I’m visiting? At least to warn him that I plan to kneel.

Then there’s the problem of what do I do should someone say to me, ‘you are not to kneel’? As I am not faced with that immediately, my mind tells me that I would not attend that mass. But I’m still stuck, as I would hate to miss mass for obstinence.

I would say that I try to be obedient, but I have to admit that at this time, on this point, today, I’m not willing to be obedient.

:confused:

Sheesh… hopefully, I won’t have to really deal with this for a few weeks. I do ask that every one please be kind and pray for me that I soften my ways, and I’m willing to be obedient should this come up again.
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Everyone who is able to kneel is required to do so from the Holy, Holy to the Great Amen, in the Latin Rite. The local Bishop may determine diocese wide to require standing AFTER the Lamb of God to individual reception of Holy Communion. The local Bishop does not have any authority to require any other posture of the faithful except kneeling from the Holy, Holy to the Great Amen.

AFTER returning from receiving Holy Communion you may choose to either sit or kneel, which ever you choose.
 
(Br. Rich’s advice applies to the USA and maybe Canada. I think some countries stand in the later part of the Eucharistic Prayer?)
 
Br.Rich_SFO said:
Everyone who is able to kneel is required to do so from the Holy, Holy to the Great Amen, in the Latin Rite. The local Bishop may determine diocese wide to require standing AFTER the Lamb of God to individual reception of Holy Communion. The local Bishop does not have any authority to require any other posture of the faithful except kneeling from the Holy, Holy to the Great Amen.

AFTER returning from receiving Holy Communion you may choose to either sit or kneel, which ever you choose.
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What should you do if your bishop tries to make people stand during the consecration? :confused:
 
Br.Rich_SFO said:
Everyone who is able to kneel is required to do so from the Holy, Holy to the Great Amen, in the Latin Rite. The local Bishop may determine diocese wide to require standing AFTER the Lamb of God to individual reception of Holy Communion. The local Bishop does not have any authority to require any other posture of the faithful except kneeling from the Holy, Holy to the Great Amen.

AFTER returning from receiving Holy Communion you may choose to either sit or kneel, which ever you choose.
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Ok… BUT… if every one else is standing, and I alone am kneeling, is that the correct posture for me to take at that mass, or not?

Since I want to believe that you are right, do I need to mention this to the celebrant when I go to where there is no kneelers?

I may be “right”, but I think it’s important for me to do RIGHT.

While I may want to continue to kneel, I realize that my obedience is very important, too.

Which is why the quandry…
 
SMHW said:
(Br. Rich’s advice applies to the USA and maybe Canada. I think some countries stand in the later part of the Eucharistic Prayer?)
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Br. Rich’s statements were correct, Latin Rite Catholics kneel from the Sanctus to the Great Amen.

US and Canadian Catholics (among others) sought and recieved permission to kneel from the Doxology to the Agnus Dei.

So unless the Vatican has granted permission to do otherwise, Catholics who are not prevented from kneeling by space, age or other good reason are required to do so.

Note that a Bishops instruction contrary to the Vatican does not constitute a prevention.
 
Holly3278 said:
What should you do if your bishop tries to make people stand during the consecration? :confused:
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I’d kneel - and have 😉 The Bishop or Priest is mistaken and in all charity they may not know the clear directive of the GIRM.
You could send either one a charitable note with the portion of the GIRM that states this?
 
Apryl said:
Ok… BUT… if every one else is standing, and I alone am kneeling, is that the correct posture for me to take at that mass, or not?

Since I want to believe that you are right, do I need to mention this to the celebrant when I go to where there is no kneelers?

I may be “right”, but I think it’s important for me to do RIGHT.

While I may want to continue to kneel, I realize that my obedience is very important, too.

Which is why the quandry…
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If it was in a Monastery, it may be different. At the Trappist monastery where I go on retreat, they stand. There are no kneelers and it has a lot to do with the fact that the retreatants are so far in back of the Church, sitting in monastic pews,(not sure of the real name,) that if you knelt, you wouldn’t see the altar. You are not prohibited from kneeling however, and the first year I was there, I knelt, but it felt like i was in a little closet where I couldn’t hear or see anything.

Jim
 
Apryl said:
Ok… BUT… if every one else is standing, and I alone am kneeling, is that the correct posture for me to take at that mass, or not?

Since I want to believe that you are right, do I need to mention this to the celebrant when I go to where there is no kneelers?

I may be “right”, but I think it’s important for me to do RIGHT.

While I may want to continue to kneel, I realize that my obedience is very important, too.

Which is why the quandry…
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You only disobey someone who has the authority to direct you in an action. You do not and should not make any issue of the fact that you are kneeling as prescribed in the liturgical norms. Simply follow them quietly.

You are never required to something wrong just beacuse everyone else is.
 
The GIRM says to kneel during the consecration. It doesn’t say to kneel for the whole Eucharistic prayer. So perhaps you could just kneel during the consecration.

In Canada, we kneel from the Sanctus until the Memorial Acclamation, so we are kneeling during the consecration. However from the Memorial Acclamation to the Great Amen most people stand.
 
We had a cluster mass last evening, with 3 parishes total. Two of the three parishes stand during the consecration, as well as after Holy Communion. The mass was at my parish, which routinely kneels during the consecration. At daily mass this morning, our priest commented how wonderful it was that NOBODY knelt during the consecration and everyone collectively stood. Well, I knelt and didn’t appreciate being referred to as a nobody. How do Bishops get away with standing during the consecration when it doesn’t follow the Latin Rite? I am struggling soooo much in how to deal with all these things, and how to instruct my kids. Up to the recent retirement of our pastor and the new one arriving, I always taught my kids to kneel after communion, as this is the time when Jesus is closest. Now, we’re told to stand and sing as a community after communion. Again I have to ask, how are local Bishops allowed to change these “rules” in the Liturgy? Any thoughts would be appreciated! Michele
Br.Rich_SFO said:
Everyone who is able to kneel is required to do so from the Holy, Holy to the Great Amen, in the Latin Rite. The local Bishop may determine diocese wide to require standing AFTER the Lamb of God to individual reception of Holy Communion. The local Bishop does not have any authority to require any other posture of the faithful except kneeling from the Holy, Holy to the Great Amen.

AFTER returning from receiving Holy Communion you may choose to either sit or kneel, which ever you choose.
Click to expand...
 
mmcdaf said:
We had a cluster mass last evening, with 3 parishes total. Two of the three parishes stand during the consecration, as well as after Holy Communion. The mass was at my parish, which routinely kneels during the consecration. At daily mass this morning, our priest commented how wonderful it was that NOBODY knelt during the consecration and everyone collectively stood. Well, I knelt and didn’t appreciate being referred to as a nobody. How do Bishops get away with standing during the consecration when it doesn’t follow the Latin Rite? I am struggling soooo much in how to deal with all these things, and how to instruct my kids. Up to the recent retirement of our pastor and the new one arriving, I always taught my kids to kneel after communion, as this is the time when Jesus is closest. Now, we’re told to stand and sing as a community after communion. Again I have to ask, how are local Bishops allowed to change these “rules” in the Liturgy? Any thoughts would be appreciated! Michele
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You have a problem here. The bishop cannot tell you to stand. The bishop is the protector of the liturgy NOT the author. His job is to carry out what the Church promulgates. However, just because your pastor says that this is what the bishop wants, does not mean that it is the truth. It wouldn’t be the first time that a priest made an excuse for an abuse by saying, “the bishop wants it this way.”

Sounds like this needs to be escalated to the diocesan level and higher if necessary.

Feel free to PM me or others here for advice.

God bless!
 
I live in a city on the Texas-Mexican border. Often, there is confusion because folks from Mexico come to our Masses and they stand when we kneel. However, everyone kneels during the Consecration.

Even in our parish’s Daily Mass area (where we have portable kneelers), nearly everyone kneels (except for the elderly who have hard time with the apparatus).

Now, in Mexico, the faithful stand during the Memorial Acclamation. However, when they come to our side for Mass, the Mexican faithful receive a gentle nudge to remain kneeling (especially if they sit in the front) so as to not confuse the others.

Oddly enough, I went to a funeral where the introductory rubrics were thrown out the window (no body/cremains and whatever penitential rite was supposed to happen, didn’t quite occur and part of the homily was extolling the deceased), but, when we got to the consecration, the priest would not continue until everyone knelt.

Now, in the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy from the Second Vatican Council (and reaffirmed in Redemptionis Sacramentum) no one, not the priest nor the bishop, has the right to make amend texts or make changes to the Mass. I’m not sure if this also applies to rubrics, of which kneeling is such a one. But, I do believe that the GIRM, as other posters have indicated, does call for kneeling during the Consecration, as that is the high point of our Eucharistic sacrifice.
 
mmcdaf said:
We had a cluster mass last evening, with 3 parishes total. Two of the three parishes stand during the consecration, as well as after Holy Communion. The mass was at my parish, which routinely kneels during the consecration. At daily mass this morning, our priest commented how wonderful it was that NOBODY knelt during the consecration and everyone collectively stood. Well, I knelt and didn’t appreciate being referred to as a nobody. How do Bishops get away with standing during the consecration when it doesn’t follow the Latin Rite? I am struggling soooo much in how to deal with all these things, and how to instruct my kids. Up to the recent retirement of our pastor and the new one arriving, I always taught my kids to kneel after communion, as this is the time when Jesus is closest. Now, we’re told to stand and sing as a community after communion. Again I have to ask, how are local Bishops allowed to change these “rules” in the Liturgy? Any thoughts would be appreciated! Michele
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No they are not, but that has never stopped them in the past and I doubt it will stop them in the future.
 
Hi,

I was told that unless it is a major abuse (as listed in RS), the laity should obey their Pastor, and any wrong is on his part, not yours.

We are instructed to discuss or report the problem, not to defy a priest.

In many places the congregation stands through the entire Eucharistic Prayer. It is not wrong, just different, and can be more solemn than struggling to kneel when there are no accommodations.

It may be a good sacrifice.

Lux
 
I have spoken with the pastor. He has assured me kneeling is not wrong (thankfully). It’s just all the gentle requests and/or comments he makes that I am continually struggling with. It’s hard for me to instruct my own kids to kneel when he suggests all should stand. I don’t know what is right & wrong and even on this forum there is disagreement. I just want the bottom line from the Vatican. Do any rites and/or rubics allow bishops the option to have their congregation stand during the consecration, when the members are physically able to kneel?

Thank you.
 
Hi,
Do any rites and/or rubics allow bishops the option to have their congregation stand during the consecration, when the members are physically able to kneel?
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The quick answer is NO for the US, but when do we ever get a quick answer with no strings?

My Pastor always says, “be reasonable”. If a Bishop or priest prefers a posture which is not wrong, just used in a different area, why not just let it go? (assuming you have already discussed this with him) As I said, I was told (by a conservative priest who would definitely agree with you) that obedience and/or respect is more important unless it is a serious abuse (as described in RS).

I teach Religious instruction, and it is so sad to see the kids correcting each other and even me. This “I am right, and I’m gonna tell you, in front of everyone” attitude is far too prevelant in this country. If you are kneeling, when the priest told everyone to stand, you are doing just that by your actions, and while it is certainly not morally wrong, it is not supportive of your Pastor.

That is the complicated mess—you must do what you feel is right.

Lux
 
Many people have been disturbed when their parish violates Church law in this regards. What to do? I can understand people standing too because they do not want to feel embarrased. Personally, I deal with this by simply following liturgical law and I don’t even pay attention what others are doing then. I consider their actions their own responsibility. However, I realize the personal difficulty that many can have in obeying liturgical law in this particular matter in such a situation.
I think sometimes about what happened to some of Mother Teresa’s sisters some years ago in a place in the western United States. The priest providing daily mass told them to stand during the eucharsitic prayer, and when they always disobeyed him, he continually rebuked them. Then Mother Teresa wrote and told him that if he continued this, she would withdraw her sisters from that place.
This vilolation of liturgical law has been a long-standing problem.
 
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