Kneeling

[Micki]

Guy:

I am taking a class on symbol and ritual as part of the deacon formation program.

Our instructor told us that kneeling should be proper to the penitential rite since kneeling is a penitential position and standing should be proper to the eucharistic prayer.

What type of deacon formation is this?? Are the instructors supposed to teach what the church teaches or do they teach their own opinion?

Micki

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Guy:

I am taking a class on symbol and ritual as part of the deacon formation program.

Our instructor told us that kneeling should be proper to the penitential rite since kneeling is a penitential position and standing should be proper to the eucharistic prayer.

Many of the Deacon and Lay Minister programs are still supporting views from the 80’s liturgical innovations. I won’t argue with kneeling being a penitential position, it is. But it is also a submissive and humble position. One always kneels before their King. What greater King than Christ! Standing after the Lamb of God until returning to your pew after Communion. Makes perfect sense to me. But standing after returning to your pew until everyone else has received? That makes no sense.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

pnewton:

I only had one time I didn’t kneel at the consecration. At daily morning Mass, we usually have ont a dozen of so mostly elderly. We hold Mass in a chapel/cry room.

Once, for some strange reason, we had about 25 people show up and I ended up sitting in a rocking chair. There was barely room to sit and no room to kneel, so I had to stand along with some of the elderly who could not kneel. I felt rather silly, but I balanced it by remembering what a good thing it was that we had such large attendance.

Why do we celebrate Mass in such strange places. Is there something wrong with the main church and the fixed altar for daily Mass?

 

[asquared]

wonder if the US bishops have read the paragraph about the penalties for those who procure or assist in abortions? could make election politics even more interesting this year.

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

Br. Rich SFO:

But standing after returning to your pew until everyone else has received? That makes no sense.

That’s where symbolism over substance comes in.
In this case, it’s symbolism over Substance.
Our postures are a symbol of our unity, but the Eucharist ~ Jesus Christ truly and substantantially present! ~ Is what unites us!
If some of us kneel in acknowledgement of our own unworthiness before Our Glorious King and Lord, does that mean we are somehow not in unity with the others?
Our bond of unity comes, not in our posture, but in our receiving the Body of Christ.
Those who oppose kneeling for the sake of “unity,” are putting “symbolism” over Substance.

I have to wonder sometimes, how can anyone really, truly believe that That Is Truly Jesus in the Host, and not drop to his knees…how can they?!!

A great read: Cardinal Ratzinger’s Theology on Kneeling. adoremus.org/1102TheologyKneel.html
It would blow that instructor in the deaconate program right out of the water, I’m sure.

Pax Christi. <><

 

[Fortiterinre]

Br. Rich SFO:

Why do we celebrate Mass in such strange places. Is there something wrong with the main church and the fixed altar for daily Mass?

Absolutely, this is probably the only time kneeling really gets to be a problem, when “daily Mass chapels” are so tiny that a priest could barely do a private Mass in them. I know that poor parishes, and I’ve been assigned to a few, sometimes really dread the winter gas bills that come with heating the church for daily Mass (and sometimes the summer air conditioning bills, for those strangely fortunate enough to have AC!). But if there is to be a daily Mass chapel, it must be big enough to accomodate the assembly, and not so pessimistic to plan on a low turnout.

 

[Fortiterinre]

Hesychios:

I don’t know why Roman Catholic churches are getting away from kneeling, but the Eastern churches DO NOT kneel for a very good reason. It was forbidden in the Council of Trullo.

Now if the Roman Catholic church has recognized this Council, then it would be in violation of an ancient Canon, perhaps some Roman Catholic scholars are aware of that and therefore they are pushing the change.

This is all speculation on my part. All I know is in my Eastern Catholic parish, we do not kneel.

In Christ Always.

This clearly seems to be a local council, with lots of rules which we would never have today (e.g. Excommunication for missing Mass three Sundays in a row?! Sounds more like my Rotary Club!) At least in the Latin Rite, kneeling is not ONLY for penitence but ALSO for adoration, and the two are not in opposition to one another. The idea that kneeling is only for penitence and inappropriate on Sundays is exactly what justified ripping out a lot of kneelers in chureches over the years, especially in seminaries and cathedrals.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

I tried to post this earlier, but there seemed to be a system problem.

I want to address some comments without attribution to the source based upon what has gone on in this thread.

1. 
   *]It is true that Eastern Catholics generally do not kneel at Liturgies on Sundays. In fact, Eastern Catholic churches do not even have kneelers unless they have been heavily influenced by the Latins. This follows the ancient tradition in both East and West of standing on Sundays, the Day of the Resurrection.
   *]The Latin Church introduced kneeling around the 10th century. In part this was out of an awareness of our need for forgiveness/reconcilliation before we received communion. Thus, kneeling was introduced as a penitential act. Eventually, however, an explanation of kneeling vis-a-vis royalty was introduced and this became the normative teaching for why we kneel during the consecration.
   *]The professor teaching the diaconal formation class is correct (regardless of the opinion of certain posters). He is presenting the theology of the Church.
   *]Regardless of what has been stated above, the Latin Church has chosen to use kneeling during the consecration as a sign of reverence and has mandated it via the GIRM. It is, therefore, the right of every Latin Catholic to kneel during the consecration in accordance with the directives of the GIRM.
   
   Deacon Ed

 

[pnewton]

Br. Rich SFO:

Why do we celebrate Mass in such strange places. Is there something wrong with the main church and the fixed altar for daily Mass?

No. It was a cost-cutting measure. The cost of AC in the chapel versus the main church saves hundreds a month. In the late fall we do switch back to the main church through Easter.

Normally, not have kneelers does not affect who kneels an who doesn’t (those not physically able).

 

[Guy]

Micki:

What type of deacon formation is this?? Are the instructors supposed to teach what the church teaches or do they teach their own opinion?

Micki

We also had a class on Eucharist taught via telecoference with Nathan Mitchell of Notre Dame. He is supposed to be one of the best liturgists in the US. He supports standing during the Eucharistic Prayer because it signifies the resurrection, as the priest prays in EP III (I think) “We stand in your presence”.

 

[Guy]

Br. Rich SFO:

Many of the Deacon and Lay Minister programs are still supporting views from the 80’s liturgical innovations. I won’t argue with kneeling being a penitential position, it is. But it is also a submissive and humble position. One always kneels before their King. What greater King than Christ! Standing after the Lamb of God until returning to your pew after Communion. Makes perfect sense to me. But standing after returning to your pew until everyone else has received? That makes no sense.

I totally agree with you