Lamb of God

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LovedMyAlydar

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I have question, I thought the Lamb of God was an unchangeable part of the mass, that it had to be said all three lines. Normally we attend TLM but were at an anniversary mass celebration at the cathedral. Well, I cringed when they brought out the guitars and proceeded to use them for the whole mass even though they have a beautiful organ. 😦

Anyway when they came to the Lamb of God, it was Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, have mercy on us. Then they went into some crazy stuff about 4 or 5 stanzas of Love of life, Bread of life , Heart of my soul, etc.some crazy stuff like that and concluded with another Lamb of God. What??? And the bishop was the one having the mass.

Am I wrong, but I didn’t think they could change things like that.

And the bowing of everyone before receiving communion and grabbing the host, etc. Nobody kneels before the altar, just bows, :confused:
 
LovedMyAlydar said:
I have question, I thought the Lamb of God was an unchangeable part of the mass, that it had to be said all three lines. Normally we attend TLM but were at an anniversary mass celebration at the cathedral. Well, I cringed when they brought out the guitars and proceeded to use them for the whole mass even though they have a beautiful organ. 😦

Anyway when they came to the Lamb of God, it was Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, have mercy on us. Then they went into some crazy stuff about 4 or 5 stanzas of Love of life, Bread of life , Heart of my soul, etc.some crazy stuff like that and concluded with another Lamb of God. What??? And the bishop was the one having the mass.

Am I wrong, but I didn’t think they could change things like that.

And the bowing of everyone before receiving communion and grabbing the host, etc. Nobody kneels before the altar, just bows, :confused:
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The use of additional tropes is indeed valid. The Agnus Dei should cover the entire action of the breaking of the bread. To accomplish this, tropes are added.

The bowing is mandated in the GIRM (which also says that standing is the normative posture to receive Eucharist).

Take it up with the Church.
 
Yuck! The “Mass of Creation” setting rears its head again! :mad:
 
The GIRM does allow that it be repeated multiple times until the Fraction is over. It is not correct, though that other titles or invocations be used.
 
PaixGioiaAmor said:
The use of additional tropes is indeed valid. The Agnus Dei should cover the entire action of the breaking of the bread. To accomplish this, tropes are added.
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I am unaware of any allowance for tropes; perhaps you will point us to the document which allows them.
 
I highly encourage you to attend the Tridentine Latin Mass and leave behind the vast number of Novus Ordo Masses committed since they often occur with liturgical innovations and abuses.
 
Please forgive my ignorance but what does GIRM stand for?

Also, I have never heard of the Mass of Creation, what is that?

Trust me, this was a one time special attendance outside our normal routine. I will be back to my TLM home next Sunday. 👍
 
From GIRM:
  1. It is not permitted to substitute other chants for those found in the Order of Mass, such
    as at the Agnus Dei.
From Redemptionis Sacramentum

59.] The reprobated practice by which Priests, Deacons or the faithful here and there alter or vary at will the texts of the Sacred Liturgy that they are charged to pronounce, must cease. For in doing thus, they render the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy unstable, and not infrequently distort the authentic meaning of the Liturgy.

The tropes may be repeated until fractioning is completed, make note if this is done in plenty of time and whether it was really needed. Grant up peace always concludes the final trope in the Agnus Dei.

I had this exact same problem at my church, I brought it up to the priest, it was corrected immediately. Naturally the music director was using the “mass of creation” song book…Note - it is not an approved text !!!

Please note that changed wording at regular masses is not to be allowed and falls under the classification of “grave abuses”. In this case, the changing of the wording, not always the number of tropes, is a grave abuse.

Watch closely as I stated regarding the fractioning and the amount of time needed.

Don’t be afraid to take a firm, un-yielding stand on this, this is outright abuse of the mass and should not be tolerated. The guidelines are already laid out. But, to conclude as Redemptionis Sacramentum states, me must see that we do so with “charity”. 😃

good luck on this, don’t drop the issue. Many others are not even aware at your church that is wrong and that the luster of the mass is being distorted when wording of the prayers are changed, not to mention that a “grave abuse” is taking place.
 
Since someone asked a question that I could not answer off the top of my head, I went out and sought answers from an individual working at the diocessan level in music and liturgy.

Here is the answer:

First and foremost, there is a precedent for this practice. The requiem mass, using “Pie Jesus, qui tolis pecata …” uses this trope. The text is the Agnus Dei. Many notable composers over generations have set this text to music.

Secondly: From the GIRM itself, collections of music published with the approval of competant authority are appropriate for use in liturgy. Contrary to what a previous poster said, this includes “Mass of Creation”, since it is published by GIA Publications with the aproval of the Ordinary of the Archdiocese of Chicago. The very fact that it is approved of means it can be used.

My guess? This practice may have arisen in modern times out of practicality: If the cantor continually sings “Lamb of God”, how are we to know when the litany is concluding? This is, of course, only a guess as to why the long standing practice may have been resurrected.

Finally, this does not constitute the changing of words; Redemptoris Sacramentum is speaking to a practice that IS a grave abuse: the practice of substituting liturgical texts with songs/hymns. For instance, were a song to be used that said “Worthy is the lamb, he takes away our sin, we ask him for his mercy,” this would be an example of the instance cited in the former document.

You may disagree with me and my sources; you may bemoan so-called “liberal bishops” who approve of such things; you may hate it and swear off the “new mass”. But the practice is here to stay - and the reasons that I gave above are the reasons you are not likely to make headway in your parish or diocese.
 
PaixGioiaAmor said:
Since someone asked a question that I could not answer off the top of my head, I went out and sought answers from an individual working at the diocessan level in music and liturgy.

Here is the answer:

First and foremost, there is a precedent for this practice. The requiem mass, using “Pie Jesus, qui tolis pecata …” uses this trope. The text is the Agnus Dei. Many notable composers over generations have set this text to music.
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I don’t think this exact text was set by an older composer but I’m happy to accept correction on that point. The Pie Jesu was included in many. But earlier legislation, especially since the Motu Proprio of St. Pius X forbade music that did not conform to the sacred text, so in any case, it would not be used of the Agnus Dei. Even Glorias which did were forbidden if the priest could not intone the first line.
Secondly: From the GIRM itself, collections of music published with the approval of competant authority are appropriate for use in liturgy. Contrary to what a previous poster said, this includes “Mass of Creation”, since it is published by GIA Publications with the aproval of the Ordinary of the Archdiocese of Chicago. The very fact that it is approved of means it can be used.
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I may be wrong but doesn’t the GIRM speak of collections of music for things like the Responsorial psalm and the Communion, rather than the Lord have mercy, or the Lamb of God?
My guess? This practice may have arisen in modern times out of practicality: If the cantor continually sings “Lamb of God”, how are we to know when the litany is concluding? This is, of course, only a guess as to why the long standing practice may have been resurrected.
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He’ll sing, “grant us peace”?
 
Pax vobiscum!

No, the GIRM does NOT allow for substituting any other invocations at the Angus Dei besides “Agnus Dei”/“Lamb of God”. The only time, as far as I am aware, that a part of the Agnus Dei changes is in the Requiem Mass for the Commemeration of the Faithful Departed on All Souls Day, where they say, “Agnus Dei, qui tollis pecata mundi, dona eis requiem” all three times.

In Christ,
Rand
 
Rand_Al_Thor said:
Pax vobiscum!

No, the GIRM does NOT allow for substituting any other invocations at the Angus Dei besides “Agnus Dei”/“Lamb of God”. The only time, as far as I am aware, that a part of the Agnus Dei changes is in the Requiem Mass for the Commemeration of the Faithful Departed on All Souls Day, where they say, “Agnus Dei, qui tollis pecata mundi, dona eis requiem” all three times.

In Christ,
Rand
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Why are these other tropes published after having been reviewed and approved by the USCCB?
 
If one has to ask “Is… a liturgical abuse?”, chances are, it is.
 
PaixGioiaAmor said:
First and foremost, there is a precedent for this practice. The requiem mass, using “Pie Jesus, qui tolis pecata …” uses this trope. The text is the Agnus Dei. Many notable composers over generations have set this text to music.
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The only “Pie Jesu” I know in the Requiem Mass is found in the Sequence Dies Irae. The “Pie Jesu” musical settings I am familiar with are all using the text found in the Dies Irae. I am not aware of the Agnus Dei using “Pie Jesu”. The only reference I can find for the words you quoted is Andrew Lloyd Webber’s composition.

So, can you confirm that the actual prayers of the Requiem Mass use Pie Jesu in the Agnus Dei?
 
PaixGioiaAmor said:
Why are these other tropes published after having been reviewed and approved by the USCCB?
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Did the Holy See approve these ??? Where is the approval at.

The permission would have to have been granted since the last GIRM in 2003, correct ???

Please reference the approval from the Holy See of this change so we can all read it. I can’t seem to find it…:confused:
 
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