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system
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Is it a sin to travel to “sin city” and gamble?
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Faithful_2_Rome
Guest
Nope…not at all. Gambling is NOT a sin as long as it is tempered against things such as; not gambling your rent money/mortgage, using money to gamble in lieu of buying food, clothing, etc for ones family… now as for going into one of those racy Vegas Shows that feature nude/topless showgirls… 
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Brendan
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From the Catechism
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system
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Yes, I knew what the Church’s teaching is regarding general games of chance…yet, my question is specific to Las Vegas. That city exists because of sinful activities, and when we go there and spend our money gambling are we not just helping to propogate that sin?
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bengal_fan
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thomasj317:
that’s why you have to WIN!!! lol
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system
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Bengal,
I am serious though. If we participate in abortion in any way, we are commiting sin…therefore, if we willingly help sinful activities to continue, then why is that not a sin?
I am serious though. If we participate in abortion in any way, we are commiting sin…therefore, if we willingly help sinful activities to continue, then why is that not a sin?
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Faithful_2_Rome
Guest
How can the city exist because of sinful activities?
You cannot assume that every person there is sinning…except for the ones attending the nudie shows…
If you aknowledge that gaming is not a sin…than how is the city any more sinful than yours or mine that has strip clubs and underground illegal gambling? So what if it has the nickname of sin city or that mobsters built it…mobsters also built the unions and STILL run them…doesnt good still come out of them for those that need its assistance?..though admittedly not like it used to be for being helpful to dues payers.
You cannot assume that every person there is sinning…except for the ones attending the nudie shows…
If you aknowledge that gaming is not a sin…than how is the city any more sinful than yours or mine that has strip clubs and underground illegal gambling? So what if it has the nickname of sin city or that mobsters built it…mobsters also built the unions and STILL run them…doesnt good still come out of them for those that need its assistance?..though admittedly not like it used to be for being helpful to dues payers.
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system
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Faithful,
Mobsters did built the city. Ninety-percent of the city’s revenue comes from: Gambling, prostitution and entertainment (including pornography). The gambling often goes unchecked and lives are hurt greatly. Those billion dollar palaces are not built on good intentions.
So, if we contribute to that, are we sinning?
Mobsters did built the city. Ninety-percent of the city’s revenue comes from: Gambling, prostitution and entertainment (including pornography). The gambling often goes unchecked and lives are hurt greatly. Those billion dollar palaces are not built on good intentions.
So, if we contribute to that, are we sinning?
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JimO
Guest
Actually, Las Vegas was first settled by the Mormons. However, you do make a good point. The chances are (no pun intended) that going there and participating in the “night life” will place one in proximal temptation to sin. Therefore, for that reason alone, it might be a good place to avoid for vacation.
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system
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It just seems to be that Vegas would not exist if not for the sinful activities that have made it a pit of money.
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Faithful_2_Rome
Guest
You are reading too much into what is “sinning”…
I dont care if Vegas gets revenue from hookers… should it be outlawed? Of course… but my point is, as long as I aint going to a whorehouse or a Vegas nudie show, I aint sinning if I go there to gamble moderatly and not at the cost of family. The church never has and never will tell anyone where they can go in the world and label specific cities as off limits… some things are left to us for personal interpretation…as it should be… Sodom and Gommorah were cesspools of sin… are we forbidden by God to go and live there?..San Francisco is rife with homosexuals…should we stay away cause more of our tax dollars will help produce more condoms and aids cocktails so they can keep sinning? If YOU wanna stay away from Vegas go ahead…and that will be fine…for YOU…but you cannot judge those who choose not to impose that restriction on themselves just because you may, as being wrong and you as being right… MANY matters the church leaves up to us.
Should Catholics who migrate to Vegas, as well as Catholic/ Christian churches all fold up and move away cause it was built on sin?
Are you presupposing that every cocktail waitress and card dealer cant be a good catholic in Vegas?
There are MANY meanings to Jesus statement “its not what one EATS that makes him unclean…its what one SAYS”…this can also mean that its not where you go or where you live that makes you a sinner…its your ACTIONS that define one as a Christian…WHEREVER you may be.
Abortion right now is legal in the U.S…are you making plans to move out of the country? After all, OUR taxes probably go to certain groups to perform this activity… its the same with legal hookers in Vegas…obviously you dont think you are culpable because our tax dollars may fund abortion here… so it is the same that you are not culpable just because your coins in a slot machine may pay revenue to some whorehouse…thats how I view it…anything less and I might go nuts trying to find a land that lives up to my expectations 100% 24/7 365…
I dont care if Vegas gets revenue from hookers… should it be outlawed? Of course… but my point is, as long as I aint going to a whorehouse or a Vegas nudie show, I aint sinning if I go there to gamble moderatly and not at the cost of family. The church never has and never will tell anyone where they can go in the world and label specific cities as off limits… some things are left to us for personal interpretation…as it should be… Sodom and Gommorah were cesspools of sin… are we forbidden by God to go and live there?..San Francisco is rife with homosexuals…should we stay away cause more of our tax dollars will help produce more condoms and aids cocktails so they can keep sinning? If YOU wanna stay away from Vegas go ahead…and that will be fine…for YOU…but you cannot judge those who choose not to impose that restriction on themselves just because you may, as being wrong and you as being right… MANY matters the church leaves up to us.
Should Catholics who migrate to Vegas, as well as Catholic/ Christian churches all fold up and move away cause it was built on sin?
Are you presupposing that every cocktail waitress and card dealer cant be a good catholic in Vegas?
There are MANY meanings to Jesus statement “its not what one EATS that makes him unclean…its what one SAYS”…this can also mean that its not where you go or where you live that makes you a sinner…its your ACTIONS that define one as a Christian…WHEREVER you may be.
Abortion right now is legal in the U.S…are you making plans to move out of the country? After all, OUR taxes probably go to certain groups to perform this activity… its the same with legal hookers in Vegas…obviously you dont think you are culpable because our tax dollars may fund abortion here… so it is the same that you are not culpable just because your coins in a slot machine may pay revenue to some whorehouse…thats how I view it…anything less and I might go nuts trying to find a land that lives up to my expectations 100% 24/7 365…
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system
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faith,
You make many good points. However, one cannot do anything to get away from legal abortions, other then to help the pro-life movement, pray and offer help to people who are thinking of aborting a child. Our tax dollars might go to many evil things, yet again those are not our personal choices. Choice has much to do with the gravity of our sins. One can live in Chicago and have casinos built near them, but that was not their choice to built the casinos–they just happened to be citizens living there at the time.
I have no doubt that there are a good many Catholics in Vegas. They made a choice to live there; however, they are also bound to try to live as authentic Catholics in that city, just as all Catholics are in every place on the globe. That means that while they may live there, they must try to live their Christian faith in the midst of all that sin, if not, then they are giving a form of quiet assent to that sin. They are supposed to be the “lamp” in a place of much darkness.
You brought-up San Francisco and Sodom and Gommorah, very approproate cities to bring-up in the same message. As I am sure you know, God did not take the sins of Sodom very lightly and the cities were destroyed even after Abraham had made an impassioned plea for the citizens there. Lot had made a very poor choice to live there and it might very well have cost him his life if the Angels of the Lord had not extracted him before the destruction of the cities. There are many lessons to be learned in that account.
As for Las Vegas, anyone who goes on vacation there is doing so by choice, not by force and not by civil law decree (like abortion throughout our nation). When they spend money in casinos and in bars and in clubs, they are just adding to the problem, are they not? If their money goes towards the propogation and continuation of grave sin, are they not somehow culpable?
You make many good points. However, one cannot do anything to get away from legal abortions, other then to help the pro-life movement, pray and offer help to people who are thinking of aborting a child. Our tax dollars might go to many evil things, yet again those are not our personal choices. Choice has much to do with the gravity of our sins. One can live in Chicago and have casinos built near them, but that was not their choice to built the casinos–they just happened to be citizens living there at the time.
I have no doubt that there are a good many Catholics in Vegas. They made a choice to live there; however, they are also bound to try to live as authentic Catholics in that city, just as all Catholics are in every place on the globe. That means that while they may live there, they must try to live their Christian faith in the midst of all that sin, if not, then they are giving a form of quiet assent to that sin. They are supposed to be the “lamp” in a place of much darkness.
You brought-up San Francisco and Sodom and Gommorah, very approproate cities to bring-up in the same message. As I am sure you know, God did not take the sins of Sodom very lightly and the cities were destroyed even after Abraham had made an impassioned plea for the citizens there. Lot had made a very poor choice to live there and it might very well have cost him his life if the Angels of the Lord had not extracted him before the destruction of the cities. There are many lessons to be learned in that account.
As for Las Vegas, anyone who goes on vacation there is doing so by choice, not by force and not by civil law decree (like abortion throughout our nation). When they spend money in casinos and in bars and in clubs, they are just adding to the problem, are they not? If their money goes towards the propogation and continuation of grave sin, are they not somehow culpable?
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system
Guest
Here is another scenario:
Suppose you owned a Catholic book store. Would you sell the Da Vinci Code? Would you sell Harry Potter, or the Left Behind books?
Why yes, why no?
If we acknowledge that those works have many grave errors, is it right to cooperate with the propogation of those errors?
Suppose you owned a Catholic book store. Would you sell the Da Vinci Code? Would you sell Harry Potter, or the Left Behind books?
Why yes, why no?
If we acknowledge that those works have many grave errors, is it right to cooperate with the propogation of those errors?
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Scott_Waddell
Guest
As for Las Vegas, anyone who goes on vacation there is doing so by choice, not by force and not by civil law decree (like abortion throughout our nation). When they spend money in casinos and in bars and in clubs, they are just adding to the problem, are they not? If their money goes towards the propogation and continuation of grave sin, are they not somehow culpable?
No, because they are engaging in a legitimate activity and one may reasonably assume good faith. Culpability would only extend to the patron if he had specific knowledge of wrongdoing rather than an abstract “someone in this city is probably propogating and continuing grave sins.”
Scott
No, because they are engaging in a legitimate activity and one may reasonably assume good faith. Culpability would only extend to the patron if he had specific knowledge of wrongdoing rather than an abstract “someone in this city is probably propogating and continuing grave sins.”
Scott
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agname
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thomasj317:
This rationalization could be applied to anything. If you pay your taxes…you could be funding crooked police officers, etc.
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Redeemerslove
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thomasj317:
Helping procure an abortion is forbidden, because it is a Canon Law, based on the Authority and Discipline of the Church. Not because of any doctrinal statement that I know of.
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system
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scott,
I disagree. I know of no person who is not fully aware of the prostitution, pornography and rampant sex shows in Las Vegas. Those industries are fueled by people who come mainly to gamble.
I disagree. I know of no person who is not fully aware of the prostitution, pornography and rampant sex shows in Las Vegas. Those industries are fueled by people who come mainly to gamble.
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system
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agname,
There is a significat differernce between paying taxes (and having no real control over how those taxes are spent), and paying for and choosing a vacation in a place like Las Vegas. If Catholics never cease choosing these types of activities, then how can we ever hope to improve the world?
There is a significat differernce between paying taxes (and having no real control over how those taxes are spent), and paying for and choosing a vacation in a place like Las Vegas. If Catholics never cease choosing these types of activities, then how can we ever hope to improve the world?
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Faithful_2_Rome
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Thomas,
I think you need to look at the book store scenario in the way of which you are asking your original question:
Instead of asking me if I owned a book store, would I sell Harry Potter and Da Vinci Code?.. personaly…NO, I would not if I had the authority…
BUT…
look at it like THIS,…
Would YOU walk into a bookstore that sold 99% of the great faith books you have always wanted and couldnt find…but the other 1% of the store was selling Harry Potter and Da Vinci?
Me…I am buyng the great books I have searched for… its not my problem if that store sells bad faith books… Do you not go into Walden, Borders, Crown to buy books? Or even Amazon? ALL these places deal in selling books on New Age and Witchcraft…do you honestly think you are culpable for shopping at these places? I dont…not my problemo’… that is the decision of the CEO…and THAT is the person who must deal with God… hospitals perform abortions… what is a Christian to do if that is the only place they can get a job?..now mind you, I aint stating, working DIRECTLY for an abortionist… just your everyday employees at the hospital… we could go on and on… with good examples… BUT…I am not making light of your commitment to stay away from las Vegas… self imposing restrictions upon ourselves is a good thing…but we also cant get into a scrupulous frame of mind that "since I do it, and recognize that doing “X” is bad…so should everyone else… again, the church doesnt say stay away from certain cities, states, nations, etc… it only tells us how to compose ourselves NO MATTER (where) we may be.
I think you need to look at the book store scenario in the way of which you are asking your original question:
Instead of asking me if I owned a book store, would I sell Harry Potter and Da Vinci Code?.. personaly…NO, I would not if I had the authority…
BUT…
look at it like THIS,…
Would YOU walk into a bookstore that sold 99% of the great faith books you have always wanted and couldnt find…but the other 1% of the store was selling Harry Potter and Da Vinci?
Me…I am buyng the great books I have searched for… its not my problem if that store sells bad faith books… Do you not go into Walden, Borders, Crown to buy books? Or even Amazon? ALL these places deal in selling books on New Age and Witchcraft…do you honestly think you are culpable for shopping at these places? I dont…not my problemo’… that is the decision of the CEO…and THAT is the person who must deal with God… hospitals perform abortions… what is a Christian to do if that is the only place they can get a job?..now mind you, I aint stating, working DIRECTLY for an abortionist… just your everyday employees at the hospital… we could go on and on… with good examples… BUT…I am not making light of your commitment to stay away from las Vegas… self imposing restrictions upon ourselves is a good thing…but we also cant get into a scrupulous frame of mind that "since I do it, and recognize that doing “X” is bad…so should everyone else… again, the church doesnt say stay away from certain cities, states, nations, etc… it only tells us how to compose ourselves NO MATTER (where) we may be.
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Jason_Hurd
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thomasj317, forgive the observation, but by continually narrowing the sphere in which you’re willing to operate out of concern that you not support sinful ways, I think you’re laying yourself open to charges of excessive scrupulosity. Remember that we live in a fallen world, and we all labor under the yoke of original sin. I agree that we should attempt to avoid occasions of sin, but to try to avoid it completely is well nigh impossible, unless you want to leave society behind and live as a hermit. I’m reminded of friends of mine who refuse to buy certain products or patronise certain amusement parks because of the alleged failings of the companies producing them. If we give everyone we encounter a litmus test, we’ll be cutting ourselves off from human interaction altogether. This is one of the reasons some religious immure themselves in cells and avoid the world, and that’s fine if God is calling you to do that. If He isn’t, I think the best we can do is live our lives as decently and lovingly as we know how, and hope and pray for the best.
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