Latin and Eastern devotions

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theistgal said:
Just wanted to say I was thinking about this thread when our substitute cantor sang “Ave Maria” in Latin this morning! 😃 :eek: :rolleyes:
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We have that in our song book and did sing it this morning as well at the end of Liturgy, but it English. It comes from a collections of Ukrainian hymns both traditional and contemporary. Of course that would include favorites from the not so long ago heavily Latinized UGCC.
 
Celticnovice said:
I think there can be a level of sharing in the private sector…There already is actually. I attend an Eastern parish exclusively now, but I still pray the Dominican Rosary (at home). I just feel blessed to have a access to Eastern/Western spirituality, and I feel that this is available to ALL Catholics.

I recently watched a video about an Anglican priest who to traveled to Egypt to participate on a three week retreat with Coptic monks at St. Antonys monastery. The thing that surprised me was the presence of western style icons/statues inside the caves/cells where these monks live!
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When I first started going exclusively to the UGCC, I continued my First Friday devotion, but instead going to Divine Liturgy instead of Mass (our Cathedral has daily Divine Liturgy). At some point I realized that the spiritual goals of the First Friday devotion is incompatible with the spiritual goals of the greater Eastern spirituality. Also, it was a distraction for an “Eastern newbie” like myself to still follow Western spirituality while trying to learn Eastern spirituality. And I can relate this to my everyday life as I am an immigrant. It is like moving to Canada and still trying to live like a Filipino. I know many people do that, and usually they are the ones who have a tougher time trying to integrate to the new society they live in. If I want to be successful in Canada, I have to fully integrate the Canadian lifestyle and mindset within myself.
 
ConstantineTG said:
We have that in our song book and did sing it this morning as well at the end of Liturgy, but it English. It comes from a collections of Ukrainian hymns both traditional and contemporary. Of course that would include favorites from the not so long ago heavily Latinized UGCC.
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Interesting (but perhaps not so surprising) that one made it into a Ukrainian hymn book.

The two most common hymns that crept into Ruthenian/Ukrainian usage are:

Immaculate Mary / Likuj Presvjataja (The Lourdes Hymn)
Holy God, We Praise Thy Name

The first is understandable, given the deep devotion to the Theotokos, the resonance of the Lourdes message in the wider geographic region and the connection to the dogma and feast of the Immaculate Conception, which gained wide acceptance in the Byzantine-Slav Catholic tradition.

The second reflects cross-polination from German Catholic tradition, especially that of southern Germany where clse parallels can be seen between Roman Catholic and Greek Catholic traditions of Eastern Europe.

BTW - this is likely not very off topic here, as the music / chant traditions of the Catholic Churches are often clear reflections of the “devotions” of import in the respective constituent traditions of the various ritual Churches.
 
ByzCathCantor said:
Surely at least one of the cantors there knows how to chant Prostopinije properly. 😉
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Yes, I’m married to one. 👍
ConstantineTG said:
We have that in our song book and did sing it this morning as well at the end of Liturgy, but it English.
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Indeed - the problem is not so much the song and the lyrics, but the Latin. After all, if your church has been expressly commanded to de-Latinize, and you stand up and sing perhaps the most well-known Latin hymn in the world, it makes you wonder if they’re really serious. :rolleyes:

I think I’m going to have to say a few extra Rosaries. 😉
 
theistgal said:
Yes, I’m married to one. 👍

Indeed - the problem is not so much the song and the lyrics, but the Latin. After all, if your church has been expressly commanded to de-Latinize, and you stand up and sing perhaps the most well-known Latin hymn in the world, it makes you wonder if they’re really serious. :rolleyes:

I think I’m going to have to say a few extra Rosaries. 😉
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I don’t mind the hymn, it is not heretical or anything. But one can complain that the Mariology is distinctively Latin rather than Byzantine, that is the focus on Mary as Heavenly Queen rather than the Theotokos. Not that the Byzantines deny Mary’s queenship, it’s just not the focus of our Mariology.
 
ByzCathCantor said:
Interesting (but perhaps not so surprising) that one made it into a Ukrainian hymn book.

The two most common hymns that crept into Ruthenian/Ukrainian usage are:

Immaculate Mary / Likuj Presvjataja (The Lourdes Hymn)
Holy God, We Praise Thy Name

The first is understandable, given the deep devotion to the Theotokos, the resonance of the Lourdes message in the wider geographic region and the connection to the dogma and feast of the Immaculate Conception, which gained wide acceptance in the Byzantine-Slav Catholic tradition.

The second reflects cross-polination from German Catholic tradition, especially that of southern Germany where clse parallels can be seen between Roman Catholic and Greek Catholic traditions of Eastern Europe.

BTW - this is likely not very off topic here, as the music / chant traditions of the Catholic Churches are often clear reflections of the “devotions” of import in the respective constituent traditions of the various ritual Churches.
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German? I thought its the Polish influence that brought all the Latin elements into Ukraine?
 
ByzCathCantor said:
A lot, but not all, and let’s not blame the Poles - they seem to have had a willing audience …
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Well most of Catholic Ukraine was their territory for a while. It is not surprising their influence on the Ukrainians.
 
ConstantineTG said:
I don’t mind the hymn, it is not heretical or anything. But one can complain that the Mariology is distinctively Latin rather than Byzantine, that is the focus on Mary as Heavenly Queen rather than the Theotokos. Not that the Byzantines deny Mary’s queenship, it’s just not the focus of our Mariology.
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I agree, and that’s one thing I would agree with you on, that Eastern spirituality focuses on different aspects of Christ, Mary, etc.

While there is certainly crossover (as you say, both East and West agree that she’s (a) Mother of God and (b) Heavenly Queen), my wildly stereotypical view is that the vast majority of Eastern hymns, akathists, troparia etc. focus on (a), while the vast majority of Western hymns & devotions focus on (b).

And that’s just fine! 👍
 
Holy Mary , Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death !
 
ConstantineTG said:
Funny because this line is absent in the “Byzantine Hail Mary” 😃
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Well, likely that many of those, esp. the Holy Fathers who have advocated these devotions and who recite those words, mean to include all sinners ,which is all of us , whether Catholic / Orthodox etc :, as well as those who have been the reason for any omissions that may not be in the best interest of the faithful !

Hopefully , those who do the Jesus prayer , aslo reciprocate on behalf of others too !

Peace !
 
Josephene said:
Well, likely that many of those, esp. the Holy Fathers who have advocated these devotions and who recite those words, mean to include all sinners ,which is all of us , whether Catholic / Orthodox etc :, as well as those who have been the reason for any omissions that may not be in the best interest of the faithful !
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“For you gave birth to Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of our souls. Amen”

Surely such an affirmation, recognizing Mary as the Theotokos, has great merit, especially in the context of praying the Angelic Salutation.
 
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