Latin-to-English prayer translations

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Tis_Bearself

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I’m currently involved in a Total Consecration renewal where, among other things, we are praying “Veni Creator Spiritus” and “Ave Maris Stella” every day. The Latin-English translations provided by the website we are supposed to be using were not only unclear but (to me) pretty awful. (The version of the Bible they are using, while Catholic, is also pretty awful IMHO, but I imagine that may be due to copyright issues and which version is available for public use, plus I can easily just go over to USCCB or a DR or Haydock or whatever site and read the same verses there.)

With respect to the Latin prayers translated to English, what exactly is the issue with simply using the direct, literal translation of the Latin? Seems fine to me and is extremely clear, whereas some of these “poetic” translations are so tortured that the simple meaning of phrases in “Veni Creator” becomes hard to follow. I had difficulty even finding a literal translation of “Veni Creator” on the web; I do know basic Latin but I’m rusty and don’t trust myself to correctly translate an important prayer on my own.
 
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Veni Creator Spiritus and Ave Maris Stella are also hymns set to a specific piece of music. That makes it very difficult to translate them into other languages as the poetic, rhythm, rime etc have to follow along.

I have seen some of our hymns needed to be 4 verses instead of 3 for the Latin or English or whatever was the original language. I also believe that translating hymns/songs are one of the more difficult thing one can do language wise.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
The Latin-English translations provided by the website we are supposed to be using were not only unclear but (to me) pretty awful.
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Would you care to provide a link or, alternatively, to quote a line or two as an example?
 
This is the “Veni Creator” translation provided by the website that we’re supposed to use. It’s incredibly flowery and clumsy in parts.

Come, 0 Creator Spirit blest!
And in our souls take up thy rest;
Come with Thy grace and heavenly aid,
To fill the hearts which Thou hast made.
Great Paraclete! To Thee we cry,
O highest gift of God most high!
O font of life! 0 fire of love!
And sweet anointing from above.
Thou in Thy sevenfold gifts art known,
The finger of God’s hand we own;
The promise of the Father, Thou!
Who dost the tongue with power endow.
Kindle our senses ‘from above,
And make our hearts o’erflow with love;
With patience firm and virtue high
The weakness of our flesh supply.
Far from us drive the foe we dread,
And grant us Thy true peace instead;
So shall we not, with Thee for guide,
Turn from the path of life aside.
Oh, may Thy grace on us bestow
The Father and the Son to know,
And Thee through endless times confessed
Of both the eternal Spirit blest.
All glory while the ages run
Be to the Father and the Son
Who rose from death; the same to Thee,
O Holy Ghost, eternally. Amen.

I thought the first four lines were okay as they are recognizable as the first verse of the hymn, “Come Holy Ghost, Creator blest…” etc. but after that it got progressively worse. Lines like “So shall we not, with thee as guide, turn from the path of life aside” are grammatically torturous. And lines like “the finger of God’s hand we own” and “the weakness of our flesh supply” made little sense to me, so I went looking for a decent translation.

This is the actual literal Veni Creator translation from book source, linked on the blog of a classics scholar:

Come, creator Spirit,
visit the souls of your people;
fill with grace from above the hearts that you have created.
You who are called advocate,
gift of the most high God,
the living fountain,
fire, love and balm of the spirit,
you bestow sevenfold gifts;
you, the finger of God’s right hand,
you, the duly promised of the Father,
providing tongues with speech,
kindle a light in (our) minds,
pour love into (our) hearts,
strengthening the weaknesses of our bodies with perpetual vigor.
Drive the enemy far away,
and give peace forthwith,
so that with you leading the way as our guide,
we may avoid all things harmful.
Grant that through you,
we may know the Father,
and also come to know the Son,
and may we ever believe in you,
the Spirit of both.
Amen.

I think it reads very nicely in its simplicity.
 
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Thank you, Tis! Yes, anybody attempting a verse translation faces difficult choices. The meter and the rhyming couplets on the one hand, the plain meaning of the words in the original language on the other …

Is there any clear reason why they chose to use a verse translation in this case? Are you expected to sing it?
 
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There’s no expectation. It is a group activity, but an online group, so we don’t all get together to recite or sing the prayers. I tried initially to just sing it to “Come Holy Ghost” hoping that would work, but it was just too clumsy once you got past the first verse. I’m free to use the literal translation and therefore I’m doing so.

Had a similar issue with the “Ave Maris Stella”…the proposed translation is also in verses and, while not as bad as the “Veni Creator” one IMHO, still not as nice, clear and direct as the actual literal translation.
 
That first one is the traditional English translation which has been used for quite some time.
 
I suppose you could make your own “translation” by modernising the words a bit.
 
I’m sure one could, if one felt they needed to do so.

It’s rather interesting to see how the Veni Creator Spiritus translations have evolved through the centuries in English:

aclerkofoxford.blogspot.com

Veni Creator Spiritus: Various Translations

For Whitsun (aka Pentecost, but let's be medieval here), here's the hymn 'Veni Creator Spiritus', as translated by various English poets ove...
aclerkofoxford.blogspot.com aclerkofoxford.blogspot.com

I think the Caswall version is the one we sang in church for decades under the title “Come Holy Ghost”.
 
And of course, one can always use the Latin. 😀

Over the years I’ve gotten quite comfortable with the Pater Noster, Ave Maria, Credo, etc. I figure a few years (God willing) and I’ll be comfortable with the Veni Creator Spiritus, the Magnificat, Ave Maris Stella, etc.
 
Latin is awesome… Aquinas’ hymns are great in English, but hearing Pange, Lingua sung by a good schola… a little piece of heaven on Earth.
 
stpurl said:
And of course, one can always use the Latin.
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I use Latin all the time and wish it would return. It’s our sacred language, which has been sanctified over time. Pope Benedict XVI wanted all Catholics to know the basic prayers.
 
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