Law or Faith?

[FranciscoIsrael]

***22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[a] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Romans 3:22-31/I]***

I came across this verse when I was reading my Bible, It sounded very weird because I was thought all this while in cathechism that we are made righteous by our acts. Can someone explain this to me. Please dont tell me that “Faith is dead without actions” because Actions are dead without Faith!

 

[Christy_Beth]

We aren’t made righteous by what we do. It is within the grace of Christ Jesus. Yes, what we do matters. I can’t remember where this is said, but the quote that Abraham was made righteous by his deeds. But that was God’s doing, not Abraham’s.

Our faith and our actions go hand in hand. One proves the other. Of course, I can only speak from my own understanding of this. Does it help?

 

[mercygate]

Please dont tell me that “Faith is dead without actions” because Actions are dead without Faith!

There is no contradiction. The “law” in Romans is specifically the Levitical law. That whole book is about circumcision and the ritual law of Moses. Note the phrase “observing the law” in Rom. 3:27. This is not about “good works” it is about kinds of works contained in the Mosaic law that nobody could possibly come up with simply by the criteria of Romans 1 in which Paul speaks of barbarians having no excuse for their depravity because what can be known about God is written on the face of creation.

Elsewhere Paul speaks of being judged by our deeds. James clearly states, in apparent contradiction to Paul in Romans, that “if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?” But in this case, the “works” are works of mercy, prompted by Christian love.

The words of Jesus are replete with examples of how works of love are integral with the love of God and faith in Him.

There is no contradiction.

BTW, the Catholic Church has never taught that we are “made righteous” by our acts. While we believe that our actions contribute to our sanctification, we act from grace alone, in grace, by the grace of Christ unto grace.

This link is kind of intense but gives a scriptural overview of the Catholic view of justification.

 

[fhansen]

I came across this verse when I was reading my Bible, It sounded very weird because I was thought all this while in cathechism that we are made righteous by our acts. Can someone explain this to me. Please dont tell me that “Faith is dead without actions” because Actions are dead without Faith!

We run into trouble when we take individual verses out of context and try to use them to sum up the whole Christian faith. When Paul contrasts faith with observance of the law, he is combating legalism, the notion that we can be justified, or made holy, by putting on a show of holiness. Remember that scripture says that God judges by the heart while man judges by outward appearances. The CC teaches that our justification comes from many dispositions and actions. Along with faith there must be sorrow for sin, hope, love for God, and the works or actions which God gives us to do. All of this is part of our conversion, or metanoia, all of this comes to us only by the grace of God, and all of this can be resisted by us. The bottom line is that neither faith, nor actions, nor any other thing can be separated from each other or singled out as being the one component necessary for our salvation.

 

[Nita]

We are made righteous when sanctifying grace is infused into our soul at Baptism, cleansing our soul of all sin (original sin and any other personal sins committed previous to one’s Baptism). ** At Baptism, a profession of faith is all that is required on the part of the recipient **(or, if a baby, by the godparents on behalf of the baby).

The supernatural life of this sanctifying grace is meant to inhere permanently in our soul. However, serious, unrepented sin causes the loss of this grace in our soul. If we repent and confess, the life of grace is restored to us.

God increases the life of this grace in us when we do good acts.

Nita

 

[Warrior4Him]

We aren’t made righteous by what we do. It is within the grace of Christ Jesus. Yes, what we do matters. I can’t remember where this is said, but the quote that Abraham was made righteous by his deeds. But that was God’s doing, not Abraham’s.

Our faith and our actions go hand in hand. One proves the other. Of course, I can only speak from my own understanding of this. Does it help?

That sounds right to me. If we really believe in God our faith will stir us to do works.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Only by participating in the infinite merits of sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ can we obtain forgiveness of Original Sin and our past sins and be made righteous. We participate in the merits of Jesus’ sacrifice and are made righteous in the sacrament of baptism, the sacrament of faith. Once we have been made righteous in baptism, we are obliged to act righteously. If we fail to act righteously (if we sin mortally), we will lose our righteousness. If we later repent of our sins, we can regain our lost righteousness in the sacrament of confession, which is another participation in the merits of Jesus’ sacrifice.

 

[FranciscoIsrael]

Only by participating in the infinite merits of sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ can we obtain forgiveness of Original Sin and our past sins and be made righteous. We participate in the merits of Jesus’ sacrifice and are made righteous in the sacrament of baptism, the sacrament of faith. Once we have been made righteous in baptism, we are obliged to act righteously.** If we fail to act righteously (if we sin mortally), we will lose our righteousness.** If we later repent of our sins, we can regain our lost righteousness in the sacrament of confession, which is another participation in the merits of Jesus’ sacrifice.

Can you please give me Biblical evidence for the statements which are bolded on top…

We participate in the merits of Jesus’ sacrifice and are made righteous in the sacrament of baptism

Romans 6:4
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

How can we be made righteous by baptism when baptism is only a covenant with Jesus to announce to the whole world, physical and spiritual that you are not ressurected through the waters of baptism. It is a pledge of good consience towards God!
(1 Peter 3:21)

If we fail to act righteously (if we sin mortally), we will lose our righteousness.

Everyone has sinned and fallen from God’s glory, but how can we possibly lose righteousness since we are in Jesus?
We can only lose righteousness if we are not righteous and the righteousness lost is your own self-righteousness but if you are in Christ, can we lose Christ reighteousnss?

we can regain our lost righteousness in the sacrament of confession,

Regaining righteousness through the sacrament of confession?
Well, I 've no comment in this, although I am a Catholic, I personally do not believe that we need confession if all our sins, past, present and future are already forgiven.

When we go for confession, we have to do a pennace. What is pennace for? To remove sin! It involves feeling genuine remorse for sins and accepting an appropriate punishment from a designated church official. Penance allows people to reflect on their sins while they endure the punishment, allowing them to be absolved by a priest. Jesus felt genuienly remorse for all our sins and he accepted the punishment which was to fall on us! He became a curse for us on the cross so that today we may be blessed! (Galatians 3:13)

If we are still going on living as thought the cross of Jesus made no difference at all we are calling God a liar, The cross did made a difference! From that cross comes forgiveness!

Next year I’ll be recieving confirmation and my teacher told me once that if I have sinned, I have to searh my heart as David did.
David truly made a beautiful statement in Psalm 139:23-24;

23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
test me and know my anxious thoughts.

24 See if there is any offensive way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.

Hey! Wake up! David did not search his heart! He asked God to search his heart! Today, if we are living in Christ Jesus all that God will find on our hearts is righteousness for we are the righteousness of God through Christ! This righteousness comes through faith and not through law and repentance! (Romans 3:21-23)

The problem with confession is that people become more and more sin-concious! They will always think that they need to be cleansed before they go to church or not they cannot reicieve Holy Communion!

Lets take this example, do you knbow of anyone who washes himself up before he goes for a bath? It is just pure nonsense for someone to wash up and then take a bath! In this case, Jesus is the Bath and we can come to Him with all our filthiness because He will cleanse us, there is only ONE Repentance, for He cleases us ONCE AND FOR ALL!

 

[mercygate]

Francisco, fess up.

Either you are not Catholic, or you have been assaulted by people who have no understanding at all of the Christian faith in its Catholic and Apostolic form.

You did not make this stuff up.

Which is it?

 

[FranciscoIsrael]

To tell you the truth,
I study the Bible…
I’m not asking you to accpet whatever I wrote.
It is a true statement which come out of the word of God and not of the mouth of men!

 

[mercygate]

To tell you the truth,
I study the Bible…
I’m not asking you to accpet whatever I wrote.
It is a true statement which come out of the word of God and not of the mouth of men!

Ah. I see. You will not tell us that you are not Catholic. Highly indicative that posting your religion as “Catholic” on your profile was a deception.

I repeat. You did not come up with the points you raise on your own merely by reading the Bible. You are either not Catholic or you have been influenced by anti-Catholic literature.

Your statement that what you say comes out of the “word of God and not of the mouth of men” indicates that you do not understand that Scripture came from the heart of the Church: written by men of the Church, in the Church, for the Church.

Please consult the document concerning Sacred Scripture, Dei Verbum. Come back when you have read it. We can entertain all of your objections at that time.

 

[Spirithound]

We participate in the merits of Jesus’ sacrifice and are made righteous in the sacrament of baptism

If we fail to act righteously (if we sin mortally), we will lose our righteousness.

we can regain our lost righteousness in the sacrament of confession,

1. Colossians 1:24, John 3:3-5
2. 1 John 5:16-17
3. James 5:16

The section of your post on confession is very wrong. Read the Catechism.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

… I was thought all this while in cathechism that we are made righteous by our acts. Can someone explain this to me. Please dont tell me that “Faith is dead without actions” because Actions are dead without Faith!

We are made righteous by “faith which worketh love.” (Gal 5:6) Notice it’s not “faith alone” nor “work alone,” but justifying faith is always a “faith which WORKETH.”

See more here: Justified by Works and Not By Faith Alone

 

[MarcoPolo]

We participate in the merits of Jesus’ sacrifice and are made righteous in the sacrament of baptism

You asked for Scripture reflecting the above sentence:

1 Peter 4:13 But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

Acts 2:38 Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And I think you did not exegete 1 Peter 3:21 correctly. Perhaps go to the original Greek to see the salvific value of Baptism.

 

[MarcoPolo]

in cathechism that we are made righteous by our acts.

Also, which paragraph of the Catechism are you referring to? That may help us clear it up for you.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Earlier, it was claimed that all sins are forgiven. However, Scripture does not support this claim.

For instance, there will be some who call Jesus “Lord, Lord” of whom Jesus says, “I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.” (Matt 7:23)

Likewise, Jesus gives the power to “retain” sins to his disciples. Scripture states, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” (John 20:23). If all future sins are “auto-forgiven” by God, this makes nonsense of this Scripture passage.

There’s just a whole lot of erroneous theology in saying that all sins (even future sins) are auto-forgiven without the participation of man.

Certainly, belief is necessary for salvation. And to quote a well-known Protestant bible scholar, C.H. Spurgeon, “To disbelieve is to disobey.”

The word “believe” (Gk pisteuo) means ““to trust” (also ‘to obey’)” (Kittel’s TDNT). This is affirmed by looking at John 3:36: “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.”

Furthermore, the faithful are exhorted by Scripture to “repent and turn to God and perform DEEDS (Gk ergon, ie. “WORKS”) worthy of their repentance.” (Acts 26:20). For those who claim they could disregard Scripture and they do NOT need to perform WORKS worthy of their repentence, they are sorely mistaken. How can one claim to have repented and turned to God but refuse to obey Scripture in performing WORKS worthy of their repentance?

According to Protestant pastor C.H. Spurgeon, The Obedience of Faith, A Sermon (No. 2195), August 21st, 1890:

"***By faith Abraham ***

when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went."(Hebrews 11:8).

The part of the text to which I shall call your attention lies in these words, “By faith Abraham obeyed.” Obedience–what a blessing it would be if we were all trained to it by the Holy Spirit!

… The obedience of faith springs from a principle within, and not from compulsion without. It is sustained by the mind’s soberest reasoning and the heart’s warmest passion.

… Yes, this is a chief ingredient of heaven–that we shall see the face of our Lord, and serve him day and night in his temple. Meanwhile, the more fully we obey at this present, the nearer we shall be to his temple-gate. May the Holy Spirit work in us, so that, by faith–like Abraham–we may obey !

… For by faith Abraham obeyed." In every case where the father of the faithful obeyed, it was the result of his faith; and in every case in which you and I shall render true obedience, it will be the product of our faith.

… Have I that faith which leads me to obey my God?–for obedience, if it be of the kind we are speaking of, is faith in action–faith walking with God, or, shall I say, walking before the Lord in the land of the living? .

… Let us consider, secondly, THE KIND OF OBEDIENCE WHICH FAITH PRODUCES. This I shall illustrate from the whole of the verse. Genuine faith in God creates a prompt obedience. “By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed.” There was an immediate response to the command. Delayed obedience is disobedience. I wish some Christians, who put off duty, would remember this… remember that the obedience which comes of true faith is often bound to be altogether unreckoning and implicit; for it is written, “He went out, not knowing whither he went.” God bade Abraham journey, and he moved his camp at once.

*** God comes down to walk with men who obey. If they walk with him, he walks with them. The Lord can only have fellowship with his servants as they obey.**** Obedience is heaven in us*, and it is the preface of our being in heaven. Obedient faith is the way to eternal life–it is eternal life revealing itself.
Amen!!! Obedient faith is the way to eternal life!! Why? God comes down to walk with men who obey. If they walk with him, he walks with them. The Lord can only have fellowship with his servants as they obey. It needs to be “faith that worketh (Gk ergon) by charity,” (Gal 5:6) or else it is not a justifying faith, but is a dead faith.

 

[Brady_W]

Read the book “The Salvation Controversy” By James Akin. Only like 110 pages long, and bingo all problems solved.

 

[fhansen]

I thought this was an interesting paragraph from the Catholic Encyclopedia on justification:

Incidentally, we may here call attention to another significant fact, namely that it was Luther who laid the foundation for the separation of religion and morality. For, by stating that fiduciary faith alone suffices for obtaining both justification and eternal happiness, he minimized our moral faculties to such an extent that charity and good works no longer affect our relations with God. By this doctrine Luther opened a fundamental breach between religion and morality, between faith and law, and assigned to each its own distinct sphere of action in which each can attain its end independent of the other. Prof. Paulsen of Berlin was therefore justified in eulogizing Kant, who followed Luther in this matter, as the Philosopher of Protestantism".

According to Luther, we don’t have to meet any moral standards in order to be worthy of heaven-Gods’ justice is simply imputed unto us so long as we have faith.

This is contrary to Catholic theology where justification is a process, not an all-at-once event whereby God declares us to be just in spite of the fact that we’ve not changed. Catholicism is all about changing, becoming holy, in order to be worthy of being in Gods’ presence, i.e. to be worthy of heaven. Would we really want it any other way? For an adult, faith is the beginning and it leads him to Baptism which accomplishes within him an actual, initial internal change by removing original sin and personal sins committed up to that time and infusing him with sanctifying grace. If he were to die immediately afterwards, he’d be heaven-bound. But if he were to live and struggle with sin like most of us must, he would need to confess his sins in the sacrament of Reconciliation/Confession in order to be made just-to regain grace-again. 1Cor. 6:9 lists many of the sins that will keep us from entering heaven.

But that’s not all. The CCC quotes the Council of Trent:
**"Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man”.
**
So God expects much more from us than simply the avoidance of sin-He’s drawing us to positive change and also action. The Potter has in mind to mold us into saints, if we will, perfected in love. Our sanctification is a continuous turning away from sin and turning towards God. We are given our talents of silver to invest and if we bury them instead, God’s not pleased with us. This is why perseverance is necessary and why we must “work out our salvation in fear and trembling”. So the bottom line is that Gods’ grace gives us faith, works, and all other things necessary to find our way back to Him if we’re willing to cooperate.

Another quote from the CCC:
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.

In the New Covenant the law still must be fulfilled but fulfilled by the spirit. Jesus told us that we couldn’t fulfill it on our own because we were unspiritual but that he can fulfill it for us. This is actualized by grace operating within us.

"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds."
Hebrews 10:16

 

[FranciscoIsrael]

For instance, there will be some who call Jesus “Lord, Lord” of whom Jesus says, “I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.” (Matt 7:23)

Likewise, Jesus gives the power to “retain” sins to his disciples. Scripture states, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” (John 20:23). If all future sins are “auto-forgiven” by God, this makes nonsense of this Scripture passage.

We have to understand these things.

1. We are not in the Old Covenant of the Law
2. The Cross makes a whole lot of difference which seperates the covenants from the old and the new.
3. Even Jesus Said some things that are of the Old Covenant.
4. We have to be able to rightly divide the covenants and the Word

In Example,

Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

I’m sure that all of us have ever sinned with our hand and foot.
Anyone here has cut off his foot or hand because of sin?
I’m sure not right.

Jesus said that

21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
(Matthew 7:21-23)

We have to see when did this event happen, obviously before the cross of Jesus. Moreover he was talking about the false phrophets who do not do the will of the Father.

Do you know the will of the Father? The Bible says that when you do not know the will of the Father you are a fool!

Ephesians 5:17
Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is.

The will of the Father is for you to prsoper in life! So do you know the will of tha Father? The Bible calls you foolish if you dont! So know the will of the Fahter.

I hope this answes some of your questions.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Can you please give me Biblical evidence for the statements which are bolded on top…

We participate in the merits of Jesus’ sacrifice and are made righteous in the sacrament of baptism

“… But you were washed=baptized], you were sanctified, you were justified=made righteous] in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.” (1 Corinthians 6:11)

If we fail to act righteously (if we sin mortally), we will lose our righteousness.

It should be obvious that a righteous sinner is an oxymoron.

“For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit; for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thorns, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush. The good man out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure produces evil; for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.” (Luke 6:43-45)

“No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, as he is righteous. He who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. … By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother.” (1 John 3:6-10)

“For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.” (2 Peter 2:20-22)

we can regain our lost righteousness in the sacrament of confession,

“Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’” (John 20:21-23)

“Let him call for the elders=priests] of the church, and let them pray over him… and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.” (James 5:14-16)

If we confess our sins, he=God] is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)