Lay Homilists

[Teillard]

I am aware of the prohibition of the non-ordained giving the homily. If that were the only issue at our parish, I’d be grateful (long story there). What I’m trying to find out if the “homilist” was even Catholic at all. He gave what was actually an ok reflection/explanation of todays and last Sundays Gospel. It wasn’t anything our priest couldn’t have done quite well. We were just given his name and that he was a biblical scholar and friend of our priest. His name is of public record and is part of an organization called LOGOS which is a Bible teaching organization. It is all on the internet for anyone to see. I got the distinct impression that some of his bio was being intentionally withheld. His name is Kevin Saunders and he is a pretty good speaker and bible teacher, but that’s not what is at stake here. Anyone heard of him? Is he at least Catholic?

 

[Joannm]

I am aware of the prohibition of the non-ordained giving the homily. If that were the only issue at our parish, I’d be grateful (long story there). What I’m trying to find out if the “homilist” was even Catholic at all. He gave what was actually an ok reflection/explanation of todays and last Sundays Gospel. It wasn’t anything our priest couldn’t have done quite well. We were just given his name and that he was a biblical scholar and friend of our priest. His name is of public record and is part of an organization called LOGOS which is a Bible teaching organization. It is all on the internet for anyone to see. I got the distinct impression that some of his bio was being intentionally withheld. His name is Kevin Saunders and he is a pretty good speaker and bible teacher, but that’s not what is at stake here. Anyone heard of him? Is he at least Catholic?

Doing a quick web search, he is not ordained but there is no indication either way if he is Catholic. He did graduate from Notre Dame, but that doesn’t mean he is Catholic.

 

[Teillard]

Doing a quick web search, he is not ordained but there is no indication either way if he is Catholic. He did graduate from Notre Dame, but that doesn’t mean he is Catholic.

Yes. It’s all quite vague, which is the point I’m afraid.

 

[Teillard]

OK an update. I’m now told by my wife that he is Catholic, as he stated this at this mornings Mass.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I am aware of the prohibition of the non-ordained giving the homily. If that were the only issue at our parish, I’d be grateful (long story there). What I’m trying to find out if the “homilist” was even Catholic at all. He gave what was actually an ok reflection/explanation of todays and last Sundays Gospel. It wasn’t anything our priest couldn’t have done quite well. We were just given his name and that he was a biblical scholar and friend of our priest. His name is of public record and is part of an organization called LOGOS which is a Bible teaching organization. It is all on the internet for anyone to see. I got the distinct impression that some of his bio was being intentionally withheld. His name is Kevin Saunders and he is a pretty good speaker and bible teacher, but that’s not what is at stake here. Anyone heard of him? Is he at least Catholic?

I’m not sure but on the end of the day it doesn’t matter whether he was a Catholic or methodist. He had no right to give a homily in the first place. Has your priest been notified that this is a serious liturgical abuse?

 

[japhy]

In case there is any question is to who can say the homily, I suggest this: : The Homily, Part I: Who can say the homily?Excerpti

 

[Teillard]

I’m not sure but on the end of the day it doesn’t matter whether he was a Catholic or methodist. He had no right to give a homily in the first place. Has your priest been notified that this is a serious liturgical abuse?

The priest is a canon lawyer. It seems as though the rules don’t apply to him and the local ordinary, in public anyway, doesn’t seem to be willing to address this kind of thing in any definitive way when a priest is involved. It is discouraging, but the Holy Spirit is in charge, so I’m not really worried.

 

[benedictgal]

The priest is a canon lawyer. It seems as though the rules don’t apply to him and the local ordinary, in public anyway, doesn’t seem to be willing to address this kind of thing in any definitive way when a priest is involved. It is discouraging, but the Holy Spirit is in charge, so I’m not really worried.

The Holy Spirit is in charge, that’s why He inspired you to send this post. What you described is in clear violation of liturgical and canon law. Redemptionis Sacramentum gives very clear direction that the homily is to be preached only by ordained (Catholic) clergy, not lay biblical scholars or the like.

[64.] The homily, which is given in the course of the celebration of Holy Mass and is a part of the Liturgy itself,142 “should ordinarily be given by the Priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating Priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to a Deacon, but never to a layperson.143 In particular cases and for a just cause, the homily may even be given by a Bishop or a Priest who is present at the celebration but cannot concelebrate”.144

[65.] It should be borne in mind that any previous norm that may have admitted non-ordained faithful to give the homily during the Eucharistic celebration is to be considered abrogated by the norm of canon 767 §1.145 This practice is reprobated, so that it cannot be permitted to attain the force of custom.

[66.] The prohibition of the admission of laypersons to preach within the Mass applies also to seminarians, students of theological disciplines, and those who have assumed the function of those known as “pastoral assistants”; nor is there to be any exception for any other kind of layperson, or group, or community, or association.146

Redemptionis Sacramentum offers remedies for liturgical abuses. The first thing is to charitably take it up with your pastor. If he is still obstinate regarding this issue, then you need to write a letter to your local Ordinary. The bishop of your diocese is your Church’s chief liturgical steward. If after some time nothing happens, then Redemptionis Sacramentum states that you can take your concerns directly to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.

It is not the easiest thing to do, but, sometimes, doing the right thing doesn’t come easy. You may not get an immediate response if you write to the Congregation, but, you will know something happened when changes come.

 

[Teillard]

The Holy Spirit is in charge, that’s why He inspired you to send this post. What you described is in clear violation of liturgical and canon law. Redemptionis Sacramentum gives very clear direction that the homily is to be preached only by ordained (Catholic) clergy, not lay biblical scholars or the like.

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I’m afraid I don’t have much credibility with this priest because of another issue my wife and I took up with him last year. I would be dismissed out of hand as a nit picking trouble maker were I to bring this up to him. I’m really tired of being part of a marginalized group by some clergy and lay people who feel we’re not getting the “big picture”. Taking this up with him would just be a formality before being asked to leave. I guess I could call the diocese office to see if he got the bishop’s permission. That would be a good segue to the actual complaint. I’m just so tired of all of this kind of stuff. Why isn’t the real doctrine enough for these folks? It is so deep and rich. It is so confusing.

 

[benedictgal]

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I’m afraid I don’t have much credibility with this priest because of another issue my wife and I took up with him last year. I would be dismissed out of hand as a nit picking trouble maker were I to bring this up to him. I’m really tired of being part of a marginalized group by some clergy and lay people who feel we’re not getting the “big picture”. Taking this up with him would just be a formality before being asked to leave. I guess I could call the diocese office to see if he got the bishop’s permission. That would be a good segue to the actual complaint. I’m just so tired of all of this kind of stuff. Why isn’t the real doctrine enough for these folks? It is so deep and rich. It is so confusing.

I would say that he is the one treading on thin ice because every Catholic has the right to a Mass that is celebrated according to the norms and rubrics demanded by the Church. This is in Redemptionis Sacramentum. It is not confusing to you; unfortunately, they are the ones who are taking “offense” at this.

He can’t throw you out of the parish, nor can your bishop excommunicate you. If that were to happen, then you have immediate recourse to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. You can find RS at the Adoreums website: www.adoremus.org and click on the documents section. It is located after Pope Pius XII’s documents. Please read it carefully.

It’s not the easiest thing to do; however, you cannot, in good conscience, remain silent.

 

[PhilipCal]

The priest is a canon lawyer. It seems as though the rules don’t apply to him and the local ordinary, in public anyway, doesn’t seem to be willing to address this kind of thing in any definitive way when a priest is involved. It is discouraging, but the Holy Spirit is in charge, so I’m not really worried.

If the Priest is a Canon lawyer, he should be aware of the canonical requirement that only a Priest or Deacon preach a homily. The practice of any person, other than a Priest or Deacon preaching the homily is an abuse, and one which the Bishop should be made aware of.

 

[quiet52]

… I don’t have much credibility with this priest because of another issue my wife and I took up with him last year. I would be dismissed out of hand as a nit picking trouble maker were I to bring this up to him. I’m really tired of being part of a marginalized group by some clergy and lay people who feel we’re not getting the “big picture”. Taking this up with him would just be a formality before being asked to leave … I’m just so tired of all of this kind of stuff…

I know what you mean. Speaking up can be “risky” – especially if we’re already involved in a ministry when a new pastor is assigned. We have to choose our “battles” carefully.

benedictgal:
I would say that he is the one treading on thin ice because every Catholic has the right to a Mass that is celebrated according to the norms and rubrics demanded by the Church…

He can’t throw you out of the parish … It’s not the easiest thing to do; however, you cannot, in good conscience, remain silent.

When we repeatedly speak up about abuses in good conscience, we might not be thrown out of the parish, but can be asked to leave a ministry that we’re qualified for, and for which we’re very needed. Or we may not receive the support we need in the ministries we’re involved in because we’ve spoken up.

I personally am reluctant about reporting abuses to the bishop. I don’t know that written complaints actually go directly to the bishop. I don’t know if my name would be held in confidence by the bishop or his staff. And I believe he is already aware of these abuses anyway.

 

[Phemie]

I know what you mean. Speaking up can be “risky” – especially if we’re already involved in a ministry when a new pastor is assigned. We have to choose our “battles” carefully.

When we repeatedly speak up about abuses in good conscience, we might not be thrown out of the parish, but can be asked to leave a ministry that we’re qualified for, and for which we’re very needed. Or we may not receive the support we need in the ministries we’re involved in because we’ve spoken up.

I personally am reluctant about reporting abuses to the bishop. I don’t know that written complaints actually go directly to the bishop. I don’t know if my name would be held in confidence by the bishop or his staff. And I believe he is already aware of these abuses anyway.

The last time I attended a liturgy committee meeting (I chaired the committee) we were reviewing the training for the EMHCs. When I read the handout we were going to give them I was told to remove the part that said that when there were 2 concelebrants (it sometimes happened if priests were in transit through our town) that no EMHCs would be needed at the anticipated Sunday Mass and only 1 at the Sunday Mass so that even if they were scheduled they could remain in their pew.

When I asked for clarification I was told that they werent to be excluded since that was their ministry -- priests would just not give out communion. ``That flies in the face of every document on Communion that has come out of Rome in the past 15 years``, I replied. At that point one of the priests got up, red as a beet, shook his finger at me and yelled ``We havent listened to one of those documents up to now, why do you think we`re going to start now?" That priest was the bishop’s teacher in the seminary – you think telling the bishop this was going to make a difference?

I decided after a week of reflection that I couldn’t stay in a position that would have me training people to do something I knew was wrong so I left the liturgy committee – to the great delight of the pastor who wouldn’t have to listen to me complain about abuses anymore.

 

[THurifer2]

The title of this thread is an Oxymoron.

 

[benedictgal]

I know what you mean. Speaking up can be “risky” – especially if we’re already involved in a ministry when a new pastor is assigned. We have to choose our “battles” carefully.

When we repeatedly speak up about abuses in good conscience, we might not be thrown out of the parish, but can be asked to leave a ministry that we’re qualified for, and for which we’re very needed. Or we may not receive the support we need in the ministries we’re involved in because we’ve spoken up.

I personally am reluctant about reporting abuses to the bishop. I don’t know that written complaints actually go directly to the bishop. I don’t know if my name would be held in confidence by the bishop or his staff. And I believe he is already aware of these abuses anyway.

I hope that you are not saying that letting the abuse slide is more important than risking your ministry. IF that is the case, then that is a very sad way of looking at things. In my opinion, my first duty is to the Church. This means that if there is an abuse and I don’t do anything about it, I’m just as guilty as the person doing it. My second is to the ministry. I can’t be a faithful steward of what is entrusted to me if I look the other way when liturgical abuses happen. It doesn’t work that way.

My father right now is facing a difficult situation in his parish. Even though he is the only EMHC (and the only one who visits the elderly and homebound), the abuses are great and he’s not going to put up with it further… He was chastised by his pastor because my dad asked one of the priests who was hearing confessions at the senior citizens home (across from my dad’s parish) to administer the Sacrament of Annointing of the Sick to a 103-year-old parishioner. My father told his pastor, but he ignored the woman’s request. Worse still was the fact that the pastor, himself, didn’t go hear confessions, he sent two other priests (and the facility is within walking distance of the church). The pastor told my dad that he could go later on in the week. The priset, by the way, is not infirmed in the least. My dad, who already saw several elderly residents die because the priest never showed up to hear their confessions, told his pastor that he wasn’t about to let another one die without the sacraments. My dad is taking his concerns to the next level.

Sometimes, we have to make some very hard choices. I know. I’ve been there and I’ve had to give up a lot. However, remember what the first commandment is: Love God. Loving God also means loving the Church and when there are problems and serious abuses, we have a duty to point them out. Letting things slide is like saying that you are going along with them. I cannot, in good conscience, do that.