J
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Tabby
Guest
Calling someone a term that person has explicitly told you does not apply is not going to “win friends and influence people” (to quote Dale Carnegie), no matter the “historical significance” of the earlier term. It is more in keeping with respecting the person’s human dignity to use the preferred term of the person you are addressing, and to set aside your own personal preferences.yes I know but… one can I would think still call all of the above (except the oblates) – “tertiaries” (tertiary) even if they are called other things.
For example one could say I am a “lay such and such” or I am a “such and such tertiary” or I am a “secular such and such” these names get used — often one for the other…
Now of course if a member of a particular order has legislation etc that states they are not to call them selves “such and such” well they are to follow such.
But if I am say writing about the secular orders – I might use the term “tertiary” to describe the members of such orders.
Tis the historical term similar to “religious” for those who are in the consecrated state in a religious order. A person going to confession could state (baring the above) “I am a tertiary, and am married etc” as their description of their state in life (they could also of course say I am a secular such and such".
Such are my thoughts.
Though one can note too that over the ages some where not called “tertiaries” from the get go but later called such…though they were from the get go.
Having said that, there are important reasons why the OCDS is no longer considered a third order and why many OCDS will bristle if you insist on calling them “tertiaries.” The Discalced Carmelite Order chose to more closely associate its secular members with the Order, in recognition of the fact that the Carmelite Order began as a mingling of priests and laypeople who gathered together to live on Mount Carmel following the Crusades. (In fact, they were mainly veterans from the Crusades.) By dropping the “third order/tertiary” designation, the Discalced Carmelites sought to more clearly signify that the seculars were fully members of the Discalced, with equal standing as Carmelites to the friars, nuns, and active sisters. All Discalced live by the Rule of St. Albert; their constitutions and statutes differ according to their state in life.
So, please, it would be a courtesy to acknowledge that no matter how venerable a designation has been in the past, its appropriateness can change over time and those changes should be respected and accepted.
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iloveangels
Guest
Secular Franciscans aren’t considered tertieries either. We’re actually autonomous, with our own minister general who doesn’t answer to any of the other Franciscan orders in any way, but rather to the Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life in Rome. Our minister general is Encarnación del Pozo, OFS, a secular Franciscan.
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Luigi_Daniele
Guest
I have always been (searching for right word), honored I think by knowing this.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
I was actually searching for a 3rd Order Franciscan group before discovering an OCDS group.
St. Francis led me out of the Charismatic movement and to contemplative prayer.
Jim
St. Francis led me out of the Charismatic movement and to contemplative prayer.
Jim
B
Bookcat
Guest
No offense was intended nor do I see any real offense. This I would suggest is not so much involving human dignity but simply a theological or colloquial use of the term or preference. If I where speaking with a secular carmelite --I can still use the term tertiary such as in tertiary vocation etc – and I have had various occasions in life to be friends with or discuss things with various Secular Carmelites (OCDS), Third Order Carmelites (TOC) and Secular Franciscans and others – and using the term tertiary or even a colloquial “third order secular” (or even a generic secular order ) – poised no problem and was understood. But I certainly do not mean you any offense. So apologies where needful.
And of course I still refer to them as “Secular Carmelites” (etc) for that is what they are
B
Bookcat
Guest
Yes I understand what your saying.
But even given that I see the term “tertiary” far surpassing even the use or not of the name “third order”. (The “third” had usually to do not with “levels” but rather with the order of foundation historically --though this was not always the case. Though for that matter the first “tertiaries” can be said to have been of the humiliati) (the Vatican Congregation that over sees them all refers to them in general as “Third Orders Secular” which has both terms contained in it)
I myself would prefer the term and do --* “secular order”* or similar – to “third order”. I find the emphasis on the secular character of the vocation to be brought out more fully for any of the Orders
But having said that I still – surpassing and even in a way beyond the term “third order” – I find the term “tertiary” to be a venerable term that can still be used (and is) similar to other “general vocational terms” terms such as “religious” “knight”“nun”“hermit”
A “secular” does not work well in that more general fashion or that general vocation term.
Hence I find the term tertiary to be splendid and beautiful. Like hermit.
And make use of it in my writing and conversation (you of course never have not use the term
)In doing this though --I do itwhile still calling of course– Secular Carmelites – Secular Carmelites and Secular Franciscans —Secular Franciscans and Secular Augustinians –Secular Augustinians and so on and on…
B
Bookcat
Guest
Historical *Third Orders Secular * (see #7 above) : (tertiaries, lay “insert name of kind of order”, secular order members, third orders, lay orders, secular orders…)
Secular Franciscan Order (Secular Franciscans)
Lay Dominicans Order (Lay Dominicans)
Secular Order of the Most Holy Trinity (Third Order Secular of Most Holy Trinity)
Mercedarian Third Order
Third Order Secular of the Carmelite Order (Lay Carmelites)
Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites
Servites Secular Order (Secular Order of the Servants of Mary)
Secular Augustinians
Secular Augustinian Recollects
Minims Third Order
Praemonstrian Third Order
(Many will use varied names than what is listed above --even different groups with the respective Orders at times…I just gave a few alternates that I found in a quick search)
Some Orders that have only one branch today…had more than one in history. Such as a discalced branch. The above however all exist currently.
and then not third orders/secular orders -but also a lay vocation are the Benedictine oblates of a particular monastery.
Secular Franciscan Order (Secular Franciscans)
Lay Dominicans Order (Lay Dominicans)
Secular Order of the Most Holy Trinity (Third Order Secular of Most Holy Trinity)
Mercedarian Third Order
Third Order Secular of the Carmelite Order (Lay Carmelites)
Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites
Servites Secular Order (Secular Order of the Servants of Mary)
Secular Augustinians
Secular Augustinian Recollects
Minims Third Order
Praemonstrian Third Order
(Many will use varied names than what is listed above --even different groups with the respective Orders at times…I just gave a few alternates that I found in a quick search)
Some Orders that have only one branch today…had more than one in history. Such as a discalced branch. The above however all exist currently.
and then not third orders/secular orders -but also a lay vocation are the Benedictine oblates of a particular monastery.
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aazucena
Guest
Do you know if it is possible to start the inquiry or formation process (not sure about the terminology) without being affiliated to one specific chapter for a given order? I am thinking about the Lay Dominicans in particular. Thanks.
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iloveangels
Guest
Probably not. Generally, lay Dominicans belong to some type of community.
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iloveangels
Guest
Bookcat, all this is your theoretical musings. It really doesn’t have a lot to do with what it’s like to belong to one of these organizations. Each of them really is distinct and there’s a lot more to them than a definition.Yes I understand what your saying.
But even given that I see the term “tertiary” far surpassing even the use or not of the name “third order”. (The “third” had usually to do not with “levels” but rather with the order of foundation historically --though this was not always the case. Though for that matter the first “tertiaries” can be said to have been of the humiliati) (the Vatican Congregation that over sees them all refers to them in general as “Third Orders Secular” which has both terms contained in it)
I myself would prefer the term and do --* “secular order”* or similar – to “third order”. I find the emphasis on the secular character of the vocation to be brought out more fully for any of the Orders
But having said that I still – surpassing and even in a way beyond the term “third order” – I find the term “tertiary” to be a venerable term that can still be used (and is) similar to other “general vocational terms” terms such as “religious” “knight”“nun”“hermit”
A “secular” does not work well in that more general fashion or that general vocation term.
Hence I find the term tertiary to be splendid and beautiful. Like hermit.
And make use of it in my writing and conversation (you of course never have not use the term
In doing this though --I do itwhile still calling of course– Secular Carmelites – Secular Carmelites and Secular Franciscans —Secular Franciscans and Secular Augustinians –Secular Augustinians and so on and on…
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
Same is true for Secular Order Discalced Carmelites.
In fact, the OCDS no longer allows isolated membership.
You have to belong to a community, in order to become a member, go through formation.
My wife and myself are now considered inactive members, after our community was disbanded. Although we still follow the rule of life outside of a community.
Jim
In fact, the OCDS no longer allows isolated membership.
You have to belong to a community, in order to become a member, go through formation.
My wife and myself are now considered inactive members, after our community was disbanded. Although we still follow the rule of life outside of a community.
Jim
B
Bookcat
Guest
Yes of course --just like Religious orders per se are very distinct --but one can discuss religious life in a general way etc.
B
Bookcat
Guest
It is possible – at least with some. But the preference is that one be a member of a community.
B
Bookcat
Guest
But still members
OCDS Constitutions:
- Members of the Secular Order, for reasons of distance, age, or illness cannot participate in the regular meetings of a community, remain members of the Secular Order and, under the authority of the Provincial Delegate, are to be associated to a particular community. It is the responsibility of the President of the community to establish contact with those members and the responsibility of these members to maintain contact with the community.
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iloveangels
Guest
That’s similar to the way Secular Franciscans handle things. There needs to be a certain number of members to keep a fraternity active. The only way to be professed is to come in through an active fraternity via a formation process. We don’t really have isolated members. Even people who live in institutions who are professed are professed in community and we take meetings to them. There is no such thing as a Franciscan living out of community. Community is an integral part of the Franciscan charism.
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iloveangels
Guest
Of course, the understanding being that your discussion is VERY general, and as such, may not be very accurate about any of the specifics concerning the orders: their canonical status, traditions, charisms, practices and so on. Those are things that are not general.
As I said before: Each of them really is distinct and there’s a lot more to them than a definition.
B
Bookcat
Guest
*Absolutely.
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