Lazarus in heaven, Rich man in?

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In Luke 16:19-31 we read of Jesus telling us about the Rich man and Lazarus and when they both die Lazarus is taken to heaven but the rich man is where? Purgatory or Hell? The RVSE CE state he went to Hades which is Greek, Hebrew is Sheol. I’ve had discussion with solid catholic friends and some insist that the rich man went to hell. I feel he went to purgatory. Please add your comments on what you think.
 
According to the New American Bible, the rich man went to the netherworld, where he was in torment. I think that’s pretty unequivocal-he was in hell. 😦

God bless,

GrannyC
 
It depends on how literalistically we want to take this parable.

Some theologians and doctors of the Church have speculated that the Rich Man, commonly named Dives, is in Purgatory. They note that the Rich Man is communicating with Abraham, and has love/concern for his family still on earth, both of which are technicaly incompatible with the state of damnation, where there is no love, and where there is no communication with those in Paradise.

Then again, its possible that Dives was in hell, and Jesus was using some artistic license in telling a parable.

Some thoughts to consider . . .
 
In Hell there is pure hate, and in this passage we see the Rich man with great concern for his five brother still alive on earth. He has to be in purgatory.
 
jaralenio

In Luke 16:19-31 we read of Jesus telling us about the Rich man and Lazarus and when they both die Lazarus is taken to heaven but the rich man is where? Purgatory or Hell?

Jesus didn’t say that Lazarus was in heaven, he said Lazarus was in Abraham’s bosom, a reference to the limbus patrum (the limbo of the fathers). The just of the Old Testament did not go to heaven when they died, they descended to the abode of dead to dwell in a place that Jesus spoke of as “paradise” to the good thief, i.e. “this day you will be with me in paradise”. We say in the creed that Jesus descended to the dead, and that he rose from the dead on the third day. Jesus did not ascend into heaven until forty days after he resurrected.

The image that I see is that both Lazarus and the rich man are in the abode of the dead. There is a pleasant place where Lazarus is with Abraham. Between Abraham’s bosom and the place of fiery torment that the rich man is abiding in, “a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us”.

I believe that the rich man is suffering in the fires of purgatory for the same reasons that DV lists in post # 3.
 
Matt16:18…That is one of the best explanations of that passage anyone has given me. …Makes lots of sense.
 
St. Thomas Aquinas wrote that the Rich Man (Dives) was damned.

To the observation that the Rich Man showed concerned for his brothers, St. Thomas argues that,

“So great will be the envy of the damned that they will envy the glory even of their kindred, since they themselves are supremely unhappy, for this happens even in this life, when envy increases. Nevertheless they will envy their kindred less than others, and their punishment would be greater if all their kindred were damned, and others saved, than if some of their kindred were saved. For this reason the rich man prayed that his brethren might be warded from damnation: for he knew that some are guarded therefrom. Yet he would rather that his brethren were damned as well as all the rest.”
 
Vincent, you have a good point as well as a great quote. I may have to flip flop like Kerry.
 
Yes, I agree with Vincent as well.

This is very mystical…we need to remember that we are members of the mystical body of christ…if we are in hell, we will STILL be culpable for additional suffering if what we did or failed to do sends our loved ones to hell…Dives wasnt asking for Mercy out of love…he was being selfish, cause he KNEW that if his family gos to hell as well…he would be tormented even more.

PLUS…he asks for a cool drop of water…and he is told a great chasm is fixed so that NEITHER may cross over… people in purgatory, once sufficiently purified DO CROSS OVER…whether it was into the Bosom before Heaven was open or not…AND, souls in purgatory DO recieve refreshment from time to time…from their Guardian Angels and/or the Blessed Mother who visits them there…Dives sounded like he was pretty damned to me. 😦
 
Mat 16-18 is right and in line with the Catholic teachings. It is a parable so some of the story exists simply to teach a lesson. Remember when Jesus told this he had not died yet, that is why it uses the words, “Abraham’s Bosom” and not “Asleep in Christ”
 
Shibboleth

It is a parable so some of the story exists simply to teach a lesson.

Excellent point. This parable teaches many lessons. Is the rich man in purgatory or hell? I think that Jesus left this point intentionally vague – the rich man was suffering in fires of torment because of how he lived his life, and that is the real point of the parable.

In the parable, the rich man isn’t guilty of being abusive of Lazarus, he guilty of being rich and indifferent to the suffering that surrounds him. That is something that we need to think about, both personally and as a nation. Do we really care about the desperate poor that live just across our border in the dumps of Juarez and Tiajuana? Do we care about the hungry children in Haiti? Am I being like Lazarus if I step around a homeless person to enter a restaurant?

He has shown strength with his arm,
he has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts,
he has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree;
he has filled the hungry with good things,
and the rich he has sent empty away.
Luke 1: 51-53
 
40.png
Vincent:
St. Thomas Aquinas wrote that the Rich Man (Dives) was damned.

To the observation that the Rich Man showed concerned for his brothers, St. Thomas argues that,

“So great will be the envy of the damned that they will envy the glory even of their kindred, since they themselves are supremely unhappy, for this happens even in this life, when envy increases. Nevertheless they will envy their kindred less than others, and their punishment would be greater if all their kindred were damned, and others saved, than if some of their kindred were saved. For this reason the rich man prayed that his brethren might be warded from damnation: for he knew that some are guarded therefrom. Yet he would rather that his brethren were damned as well as all the rest.”
Click to expand...
I’m having a hard time understanding Saint Thomas’s logic, and what he is saying. Could someone translate?

:confused:
 
Matt16_18 said:
Shibboleth

It is a parable so some of the story exists simply to teach a lesson.

Excellent point. This parable teaches many lessons. Is the rich man in purgatory or hell? I think that Jesus left this point intentionally vague – the rich man was suffering in fires of torment because of how he lived his life, and that is the real point of the parable.

In the parable, the rich man isn’t guilty of being abusive of Lazarus, he guilty of being rich and indifferent to the suffering that surrounds him. That is something that we need to think about, both personally and as a nation. Do we really care about the desperate poor that live just across our border in the dumps of Juarez and Tiajuana? Do we care about the hungry children in Haiti? Am I being like Lazarus if I step around a homeless person to enter a restaurant?

He has shown strength with his arm,
he has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts,
he has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree;
he has filled the hungry with good things,
and the rich he has sent empty away.
Luke 1: 51-53
Click to expand...

Very well said!

It is **what happend before ** they were set apart that is the place **to focus on ** in the story: “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21who longed to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man’s table; even the dogs would come and lick his sores” (Luke 16-19-21).

The rich man dressed expencive and ate more then well (feasted every day) and he gave nothing to Lazarus, poor, hungry and wounded, so helples that he had to lay still whan the dogs came for him (lick his sores).

As catholics we are not only to look after ourselves and our own family. We have also a plight to share with the poor.

From the Social Agenda of the Catholic
Church, Article 2: **The Dignity of the Human Person ** : “42. The dignity of the person is manifested in all its radiance when the person’s origin and destiny are considered: created by God in his image and likeness as well as redeemed by the most precious blood of Christ, the person is called to be a `child in the Son’ and a living temple of the Spirit, destined for eternal life of blessed communion with God. For this very reason every violation of the personal dignity of the human being cries out in vengeance to God and is an offense against the Creator of the individual.
(Christifideles Laici, n. 37)”

The rich in the parable offends God besause he doesn’t helps Lazarus when he suffers. Lazarus is made in the image of God. The richs man overlooks that.

A picture form a different world:
creighton.edu/CollaborativeMinistry/photos13.html

On the Sosial Agenda of the Catholic Church:
thesocialagenda.org/article2.htm#1

God Bless!

G.G.
 
After I had written my last post I had to go back to the Bible and read the parable once more. The last word in the parable made me stop and think:

"Abraham replied, “They have Moses and the prophets; they should listen to them.” 30He said, “No, father Abraham; but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.” 31He said to him, Abraham replied, “They have Moses and the prophets; they should listen to them.” 30He said, “No, father Abraham; but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.” 31He said to him, “If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead (Luke 16:28-31).

We shall listen to Moses (the 10 commandments) and to the prophets (they always tell us "repent, repent). The way I interpret this is that the rich man think that nothing can help his brotheres change their style of life, except a brother rising from tha dead.

The last sentence in the parable is “If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead" is a key.

Compared to past time, the time we live in now and the time to come, it decribes it exactly the way it is: We can read our Bible and obey the pope and the Magisterium. We have the information we need to understand that we have to do that (as the Jews had Moses and the prophets. Our brother, Jesus Christ, has been rised from the dead. The evidence asked for in the parable (return form dead) has already been given to us. Still many prefer to live in an uncatholic way (unchristian way).

Jesu word in Luke **18:25 ** gives sence in the light of the parable about the rich man and Lazarus: “Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God”.

Rich people have to wake up before it is to late, live life in a lesser seffish way.

G.G.
 
Gratias Grace

Our brother, Jesus Christ, has been rised from the dead. The evidence asked for in the parable (return form dead) has already been given to us.

I never thought of the parable in this way. Thanks for sharing this insight.
 
40.png
Vincent:
St. Thomas Aquinas wrote that the Rich Man (Dives) was damned.

To the observation that the Rich Man showed concerned for his brothers, St. Thomas argues that,

“So great will be the envy of the damned that they will envy the glory even of their kindred, since they themselves are supremely unhappy, for this happens even in this life, when envy increases. Nevertheless they will envy their kindred less than others, and their punishment would be greater if all their kindred were damned, and others saved, than if some of their kindred were saved. For this reason the rich man prayed that his brethren might be warded from damnation: for he knew that some are guarded therefrom. Yet he would rather that his brethren were damned as well as all the rest.”
Click to expand...
U can Neither Merit or Demerit after Death
 
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