LDS and Blood Atonement

[Paul_G]

RyanL:

I saw this at the beginning of the thread, but didn’t see it addressed after that. Just so you don’t try this again…
tektonics.org/lp/popeleox.html

Enjoy,
RyanL

Hi Ryan

You might think that bringing up a page that gives a response, to what I assume you consider a misrepresentation of Catholic thought, would present enough evidence to make your point. And well it might, I and perhaps others here could be persuaded of this. It is unfortunate that the courtesy is not extended to us by some.

Having to engage with Mormon misrepresentations frequently, I think I know why Casen brought this up, but he is able to answer for himself.

Paul

 

[JRR]

Gentlemen,

The topic is blood atonement period. If you want to discuss the Jesus myth start another thread.

Respectfully

 

[muledog]

Paul G:

I’m not familiar with latin, what does Manibus Dei mean?

Thanks… Paul

Dear Paul,

It means “In the Hands of God.”

• Mike M.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

JRR:

BJ,

Individuals who belong to the Catholic Church have committed crimes throughout its 2000 year history. Yes portions of the Crusades were terrible. We are a sinful people. But we have hope, for we know if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. That means all sins!

The Gospel (the good news) is the revelation in Jesus Christ of God’s mercy to all sinners. Jesus came to forgive all sins.

The Catholic Church trust in the wonderful Mercy of God. We remember when the angel announced to Joseph: “You shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” That is why we as God’s people can say this prayer:

Eternal Father, We offer you the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son Our Lord Jesus Christ for the atonement of our sins and those of the whole world.

I work at a prison and have frequent contact with inmates on their deathbeds and I remind them of the “good thief” on the cross. I tell them no matter what they have done Jesus will forgive them even as He forgave the “good thief” in his last hours on this earth. All they must do is ask for His Divine Mercy.

BJ I will keep you in my prayers and ask the Holy Spirit to help you to understand the Divine Mercy.

Thank you for your prayers on my behalf, I too will pray for you to understand my thoughts on the subject of forgiveness.
I see you allow forgiveness for the Crusades, and for the murderers in prison, but for some reason blood atonement is hung around the LDS church as a former practice of many people in the west(not just Mormons) during the 1880’s that is not allowed to pass. If that is the case, then the Catholic Church must carry the sins of the Crusades through till the end of time. Then when Christ comes again they will finally be forgiven as the sinner on the death bed. I think I understand now. So indeed you believe murderers and rapists should roam free until the judgement day, and that we should have no laws or courts to punish people because God is the only one who can punish and He will forgive all sins, and all people will dwell together in Heaven. The good and the "forgiven wicked "will all receive the same reward. Wow! what a concept, now we can do anything we want while we are on earth and we receive the same reward as the person who follows Christ’s teachings. “So eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die” kill, rape, and lie and steal, for tomorrow on your deathbed, all will be forgiven and through no good works of your own you will receive all the blessings of heaven, just as if you had lived a good and honest life. Kind of makes you wonder why does anyone needs to follow Jesus Christ’s teachings if we are all forgiven equally for any kind of horrendous sin we commit.
I am so glad that I believe that man must repent and make amends for his crimes before he is forgiven. I don’t believe amends for crimes means saying a few hail Marys and Glory Be’s.
There is a lot more to being forgiven than just reciting verses. It just makes more sense to me, than your belief in unconditional forgiveness for all, no matter what their sins.
Just confess on your deathbed and all your dirty past is forgiven. . I feel very sorry for the criminals who have ruined their lives and those of their family and the victim, but there is forgivness from God if they truly repent and never commit the sin again and make amends to those they committed the crime against. It can not be done on their deathbed, as it is too late to make amends and prove their repentance. Repentance is a process that takes time, humility, study of scripture, prayer, fasting and a feeling of intense sorrow for the crime committed, among other things( that you do not believe in) such as Baptism by immersion and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. I doubt the deathbed repenter has done all that is required. His fate is in the hands of God and no one else can forgive him. Jesus Christ died for you and I that we might be forgiven if we follow his path and repent completely with a broken heart and contrite spirit. Those who do not accept His sacrifice will not(in my opinion) be allowed in His presence. I do not know what will happen to them, but I do not think they are equal to the good and faithful, unless they follow the steps of repentance. Jesus opens His arms to welcome all the righteous persons who followed His commandments, or at least did the best they could. He paid the ultimate price for our sins, but He requires repentance before he forgives. He has rules that can not be broken, without dire punishment, in some cases that punishment is death, or blood atonement.
I hope you can understand my rambling thoughts.
BJ

 

[BJ_Colbert]

RyanL:

I saw this at the beginning of the thread, but didn’t see it addressed after that. Just so you don’t try this again…
tektonics.org/lp/popeleox.html

Enjoy,
RyanL

A good lesson to be learned by the Catholics in this forum also, as to taking things out of context and all of the rest that is referred to in the above site. This also applies to the so called proof of Mormon beliefs, that are taken out of context and embellished to suit the writer. No thought is paid to where the remarks were made and under what circumstances and what was said in addition or in previous sentences in the same writing. No thought is given to the dates and the laws in affect at the time of the quotes, or the fact that prophets are human and not always speaking God’s thoughts. They do have time off, in fact there are very specific instances when they say the Lord has told them something and they must act upon it. Other than those specific times, they act as men, just as popes and you and I do. BJ

 

[Paul_G]

muledog:

Dear Paul,

It means “In the Hands of God.”

• Mike M.

Thanks Mike

That is a comforting place to be

Paul

 

[Paul_G]

JRR:

Gentlemen,

The topic is blood atonement period. If you want to discuss the Jesus myth start another thread.

Respectfully

**Hi JRR

To get back on topic then we need to go back to #27 on this thread

I’m sorry that this post has two pages, however I believe the response requires it.

To understand our history one needs to learn from the people, and not through a series of one liners form those to want to rewrite history in terms of their present day view…

The truth need not be defended when the truth has been declared

I don’t have to bend or twist his words for them to be plainly and simply understood. the meaning of their words do that for themselves, the whole of their words not just delicious little snippets that support an erroneous argument.

So let’s look at the quote in context of the talk. For the sake of brevity, and redundancy I will limit my comments to the Brigham Young’s javelin quote.

Brother Young is in deed teaching what he believes to be true.

As was asked, let’s listen to Brother Brigham is saying

**
*Journal of Discourses, Vol.3, Pg.246, Brigham Young, March 16, 1856

I mention this to inform the people, that they may understand what they should do with regard to the law of G-d and the transgression thereof. Shants that they never would do thus and so*

The law of G-d here is the ten commandments as referenced by his words “the shants or “Thou shall not”

*For example, one obligation is, “I will never have anything to do with any of the daughters of Eve, unless they are given to me of the Lord.” *

14. “Thy shall not commit adultery….17….thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife….”.

*Men will call G-d to witness that they never will transgress this law, and promise to live a virtuous life, so far as intercourse with females is concerned; but what can you see? A year will not pass away before some few of them are guilty of creeping into widows’ houses, and into bed with the wives of their brethren, debauching one woman here, and another there. *

Brother Brigham is suggesting that many accept the prohibition in this law, but by and by some succumb to the lust of the flesh

Do we enforce upon them the strict penalty of the law? (Law of Moses) brackets added

**He is asking do we have the right to enforce the penalty that was ascribed by the law of Moses (you can look up what that might have been).

And what is Brother Brigham’s answer.**

Continued

 

[Paul_G]

continued from #47

Not yet. I hope their conduct arises from their ignorance, but let me transgress my covenant, and the case would be different. I want to live as long as I can, on the earth, but I would not like to live to violate my covenants; I would rather go behind the vail before doing so.

**Not yet,

Not, hangum high?
Not, cut their throats?
Not, stone them into the ground?
Not YET!**

However, he remarked that he would rather die than to break his covenants. In other words that is what would have to happen before he broke his covenant.

*A few of the men and women who go into the house of the Lord, and receive their endowments, and in the most sacred manner make covenants before the Almighty, go and violate those covenants.  Do I have compassion on them?  Yes, I do have mercy on them, for there is something in their organization which they do not understand; and there are but few in this congregation who do understand it.*

‘Yes, I do have mercy on them’ Doesn’t’ sound like the Vengeful and Murderous Brigham Young that many ant Mormon commentators portray, does it?

And now we come to the little snippet quoted. So delicious.

*You say, "That man ought to die for transgressing the law of G-d."  Let me suppose a case.  Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, an put a javelin through both of them, you would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the kingdom of G-d.  I would at once do so in such a case; and under such circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands. But,*

**But. Do I hear the word BUT?

But, let me just throw it straight?
But, don’t let me miss the mark?
But, please don’t hold me back?**

But you who trifle with your covenants, be careful lest in judging you will be judged. Every man and women has got to have clean hands and pure heart, to execute judgment, else they had better let the matter alone.

**I think Brigham Young’s words and meaning are fairly clear for those that that have eyes to see and ears to hear.

Hope this helps

Paul**

 

[Paul_G]

Sorry I had missed out some comments and formatting on this post my edit time ran out so I will repost my complete post again…Paul

continued from #47

Not yet. I hope their conduct arises from their ignorance, but let me transgress my covenant, and the case would be different. I want to live as long as I can, on the earth, but I would not like to live to violate my covenants; I would rather go behind the vail before doing so.

**Not yet,

Not, hangum high?
Not, cut their throats?
Not, stone them into the ground?
Not YET!**

However, he remarked that he would rather die than to break his covenants. In other words that is what would have to happen before he broke his covenant.

*A few of the men and women who go into the house of the Lord, and receive their endowments, and in the most sacred manner make covenants before the Almighty, go and violate those covenants.  Do I have compassion on them?  Yes, I do have mercy on them, for there is something in their organization which they do not understand; and there are but few in this congregation who do understand it.*

‘Yes, I do have mercy on them’ Doesn’t’ sound like the Vengeful and Murderous Brigham Young that many ant Mormon commentators portray, does it?

And now we come to the little snippet quoted. So delicious.

*You say, "That man ought to die for transgressing the law of G-d."  Let me suppose a case.  Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, an put a javelin through both of them, you would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the kingdom of G-d.  I would at once do so in such a case; and under such circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands. But,*

**But. Do I hear the word BUT?

But, let me just throw it straight?
But, don’t let me miss the mark?
But, please don’t hold me back?**

But you who trifle with your covenants, be careful lest in judging you will be judged. Every man and women has got to have clean hands and pure heart, to execute judgment, else they had better let the matter alone.

But you who trifle with your covenants. Which one? Perhaps the one that say’s thou shalt not kill. Under theses conditions it was quite permissible in Old Testament times under the law (Law of Moses) brackets added.

And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man’s wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbor’s wife the adulterer and adulteress shall surely be put to death.” Lev 20:10

Our Lord, however teaches us a higher way “lest in judging you will be judged”

Brigham goes on to say you have to have pure heart, to execute judgment. Our Savior said it another way.

“He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her”: John 2:6

*Again, suppose the parties are not caught in their iniquity, and it passes along unnoticed, shall I have compassion on them?  Yes, I will have compassion on them, for transgressions of the nature already named, or for those of any other description.  If the Lord so order it that they are not caught in the act of their iniquity, it is pretty good proof that He is willing for them to live; and I say let them live and suffer in the flesh for their sins, for they will have it to do.
There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their G-d, that will not be required to pay the debt. *

How will this debt be paid and to who. To Brother Brigham?

*The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants.

To what degree? Will they have to go to hell? They are in hell enough now. I do not wish them in a greater hell, when their consciences condemn them all the time. Let compassion reign in our bosoms. Try to comprehend how weak we are, how we are organized, how the spirit and the flesh are continually at war
*
Unforgiving, Vengeful and Murderous Brigham raises his ugly head again…

*I told you here, some time ago, that the devil who tempted Eve, got possession of the earth, and reigns triumphant, has nothing to do with influencing our spirits, only through the flesh; that is a true doctrine.  Inasmuch as our spirits are inseparably connected with the flesh, and, inasmuch as the whole tabernacle is filled with the spirit which G-d gave, if the body is afflicted, the spirit also suffers, for there is a warfare between the flesh and the spirit, and if the flesh overcomes, the spirit is brought into bondage, and if the spirit overcomes, the body is made free, and then we are free indeed, for we are made free by the Son of G-d.  Watch yourselves, and think.*

**Paul
**

 

[Paul_G]

muledog:

It’s funny that I watched a special on The History Channel last night (May 28, 2005, 11pm ET) which discussed the Mormon doctrine of “blood atonement.”

Hi Mike

In reference to your post #22 about the documentary on the History Channel

I did some research, the program you refer to is called the Mountain Massacre. It is based on two books that are not very friendly toward the church, Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows by Will Bagley and American Massacre: The Tragedy at Mountain Meadows, 1857 by Sally Denton.

While friendliness has nothing to do with historical accuracy, the books began with the unfavorable approach instead of a historical approach. In other words, they are biased to begin with. Both of these books over look documentation such as reports on Lee’s trial, various affidavits, or Governor Brigham Young’s Verbal Answer

*“Go with all speed, spare no horse flesh. The emigrants must not be meddled with, if it takes all Iron county to prevent it. They must go free and unmolested.”
*

I have lots of documentation, but it to much to appropriately presented on this board

Paul

 

[tkdnick]

Maybe slightly off-topic, but…whether ‘blood atonement’ has ever been taught or not, I have a problem with the idea behind it. Basically to espouse blood atonement means that God and Jesus Christ are not powerful enough, not “God” enough to reach everyone. I cannot accept that. That’s totally contrary to The Truth.

 

[Paul_G]

Hi tkdnick

I’m not suggesting that there are no differences in our postions, just not blood atonement as it is being portrayed. Your comment might be a good topic for another thread, fair enough.

Paul

 

[BJ_Colbert]

tkdnick:

Maybe slightly off-topic, but…whether ‘blood atonement’ has ever been taught or not, I have a problem with the idea behind it. Basically to espouse blood atonement means that God and Jesus Christ are not powerful enough, not “God” enough to reach everyone. I cannot accept that. That’s totally contrary to The Truth.

Hi tkdnick,
God and Jesus Christ are powerful enough, but as in caring for the poor and downtrodden, God depends on us to do his work. He lets natural events happen, and the way that He intercedes is through us, his people, as in the Tsunami disaster and others. If we are oblivious and self-centered then we will miss the opportunity to help, and the poor may starve. In the same way, if someone commits a crime, we can not stand by and expect God to punish them, we have laws to take them out of society for a time or put them to death, however serious their crime is. God guides his people to make the decisions, and if they make wrong decisions, then they aren’t listening to God, and will suffer the consequences of their wrong choices. There is only so much punishment man can dole out on earth to a law breaker. God will make the final decision in the hereafter. Meanwhile I think our imperfect justice system will have to suffice.
BJ

 

[LSK]

the Pope refered to on this site did not refer to Jesus as a myth - except as a premise to prove Jesus was NOT a myth.

However, I was under the impression that LDS no longer approved of Blood Atonement and that that was another reason for schism within the LDS Church…and that only the real nuts that are just barely associated with LDS Church still subscribe to blood atonement…

 

[Casen]

LSK,
My original point in bringing up the “Jesus Myth” quote was that you can come to the wrong conclusion if you take a statement out of context and post it on the internet. That is done by anti-Catholics and anti-Mormons as well.

And regarding Blood Atonement, I don’t know of any groups, apostate or otherwise that practice or ever practiced Blood Atonement. It was always a theoretical concept to my knowledge and never official doctrine.

 

[tkdnick]

BJ Colbert:

Hi tkdnick,
God and Jesus Christ are powerful enough, but as in caring for the poor and downtrodden, God depends on us to do his work. He lets natural events happen, and the way that He intercedes is through us, his people, as in the Tsunami disaster and others. If we are oblivious and self-centered then we will miss the opportunity to help, and the poor may starve. In the same way, if someone commits a crime, we can not stand by and expect God to punish them, we have laws to take them out of society for a time or put them to death, however serious their crime is. God guides his people to make the decisions, and if they make wrong decisions, then they aren’t listening to God, and will suffer the consequences of their wrong choices. There is only so much punishment man can dole out on earth to a law breaker. God will make the final decision in the hereafter. Meanwhile I think our imperfect justice system will have to suffice.
BJ

I agree completely! However, this doesn’t really address my post. My point is that the idea behind the blood atonement we are talking about would necessitate that Jesus and God were not powerful enough, merciful enough, etc. to redeem all sins.

I am not saying your church teaches, has ever taught, or will ever teach this. What I am saying is that the idea that Jesus could not redeem some sins is ridiculous (for lack of a better word).

 

[Paul_G]

tkdnick:

What I am saying is that the idea that Jesus could not redeem some sins is ridiculous (for lack of a better word).

1 John 5:16-17.
“If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.”

D. & C. 64:7.
“I, the Lord, forgive sins unto those who confess their sins before me and ask forgiveness, who have not sinned unto death.”

Heb. 10:26-27
“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries.”

Matt. 12:31-32
“All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”

 

[tkdnick]

1 John 5:16-17.
“If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.”

D. & C. 64:7.
“I, the Lord, forgive sins unto those who confess their sins before me and ask forgiveness, who have not sinned unto death.”

Heb. 10:26-27
“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries.”

Matt. 12:31-32
“All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”

Amen! I agree completely with those. I did not say that all sins were forgiven. I said God is capable of forgiving all sins. Jesus’ death and resurrection was to atone for ALL sin. It’s our choice whether to sin or not, and if we willingly choose to sin and not repent then we won’t be forgiven, but not because God and Jesus were, or are, incapable of it, it’s because we choose not to accept it.

 

[Paul_G]

tkdnick:

Amen! .

Thanks. I Amen your Amen.

Paul