LDS and Original Sin

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Chris-WA

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In their Articles of Faith, LDS assert that we are not held responsible for the sins of Adam, but only for our own sins. In effect, this statement means they don’t believe in original sin.

So I ask them, how can you say original sin does not exist when all humans have inherited the effects of Adam and Eve’s first sin? We still toil in the land, we still have painful childbirth. We still have a tendency to sin that did not exist before the Fall. We still require baptism to be brought into a state of grace and adopted into God’s family. If there is no original sin, then you would think none of these things would be required.
 
Here is the direct verse from Articles on Faith

“We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adams transgression.”

Exodus 32:33

Deutoronomy 25:16 is more convincing:

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

and lastly Ezikel 18:20

“We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.”

I smell Universalism

Im not a mormon but i could see were their coming from
 
Chris-WA said:
So I ask them, how can you say original sin does not exist when all humans have inherited the effects of Adam and Eve’s first sin? We still toil in the land, we still have painful childbirth. We still have a tendency to sin that did not exist before the Fall. We still require baptism to be brought into a state of grace and adopted into God’s family. If there is no original sin, then you would think none of these things would be required.
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Some of this is from the BOM Moroni;
Sunmmary of chapter 8–Infant baptism is an evil abomination—Little children are alive in Christ because of the atonement—Faith, repentance, meekness and lowliness of heart, receiving the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end lead to salvation.

That is the summary, now here is the attack on Catholicism–
Moroni 8:
14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, **he must go down to hell. **
15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.
16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect clove casteth out all fear.
17 And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are alike unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation.
18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.
19 Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.
20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.
21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an bendless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the cjudgment-seat of Christ.

Pretty bold of JS.:mad:
 
Catholic_Guy said:
Some of this is from the BOM Moroni;
Sunmmary of chapter 8–Infant baptism is an evil abomination—Little children are alive in Christ because of the atonement—Faith, repentance, meekness and lowliness of heart, receiving the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end lead to salvation.

That is the summary, now here is the attack on Catholicism–
Moroni 8:
14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, **he must go down to hell. **
15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.
16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect clove casteth out all fear.
17 And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are alike unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation.
18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.
19 Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.
20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.
21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an bendless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the cjudgment-seat of Christ.

Pretty bold of JS.:mad:
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Wow! That’s some pretty good stuff. Yet another attempt by Joseph Smith to cut down the Catholic Church with the BoM. I didn’t realize the Nephites were struggling with the idea of infant baptism and needed Moroni to relate just how evil it is! It also demonstrates that Joseph did not really understand the Catholic teaching of infant baptism and the fate of unbaptised babies. The Catholic Church does not teach that unbaptised babies go to hell.
 
Chris-WA said:
Wow! That’s some pretty good stuff. Yet another attempt by Joseph Smith to cut down the Catholic Church with the BoM. I didn’t realize the Nephites were struggling with the idea of infant baptism and needed Moroni to relate just how evil it is! It also demonstrates that Joseph did not really understand the Catholic teaching of infant baptism and the fate of unbaptised babies. The Catholic Church does not teach that unbaptised babies go to hell.
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what does the RCC teach about unbaptised infants?
 
santaro75 said:
what does the RCC teach about unbaptised infants?
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It varies; basically it is not really defined. Augustine taught that all unbaptised infants go to hell. Therefore it is correct to say that the Catholic Church teaches this; so long as it is understood that it was a theological theory only (albeit, the theory of one of the greatest - however early - Catholic theologians ever). There is also the teaching of infant limbo: that unbaptised infants do not attain the beatific vision of God (Heaven), but they have no personal sin to be punished for and so are not sent to Hell. But as they have no knowledge of God, they have no knowledge of what they’re missing out on, and so they are perfectly happy.

As for the CCC, I’m pretty sure it doesn’t mention infant limbo. I think it says something like “we entrust these infants to the mercy of God”. Basically, this is an admission that we just don’t know what happens to unbaptised infants, as I understand it.

With all things, my understanding on this may be wrong so hopefully someone will correct me if I get something seriously wrong!
 
Atreyu said:
It varies; basically it is not really defined. Augustine taught that all unbaptised infants go to hell. Therefore it is correct to say that the Catholic Church teaches this; so long as it is understood that it was a theological theory only (albeit, the theory of one of the greatest - however early - Catholic theologians ever). There is also the teaching of infant limbo: that unbaptised infants do not attain the beatific vision of God (Heaven), but they have no personal sin to be punished for and so are not sent to Hell. But as they have no knowledge of God, they have no knowledge of what they’re missing out on, and so they are perfectly happy.

As for the CCC, I’m pretty sure it doesn’t mention infant limbo. I think it says something like “we entrust these infants to the mercy of God”. Basically, this is an admission that we just don’t know what happens to unbaptised infants, as I understand it.

With all things, my understanding on this may be wrong so hopefully someone will correct me if I get something seriously wrong!
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Early Christians speculated on what would happen to unbaptized infants, but the church teaches exactly what you said–that we don’t know. This has not been revealed. Knowing that our Heavenly Father is a merciful one, we entrust them to His mercy. I have no worries that unbaptised infants would go to hell. That doesn’t fit God’s pattern or character.
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
Hi Christ-WA mormon doctrine teaches that the “Fall” was a fall upwards. Basically, Utah LDS see people on earth as being gods in embro state, and because of the fall, they now can be exhaulted towards godhood.
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Yes I understand that, but what I would like to know is why they deny the doctrine of original sin as taught by the Catholic Church and most other Christian churches. Original sin is what severed humans from the grace of God. Christ’s death and resurrection restored the opportunity for us to get back that grace through the sacrament of baptism.
 
Chris-WA said:
Yes I understand that, but what I would like to know is why they deny the doctrine of original sin as taught by the Catholic Church and most other Christian churches. Original sin is what severed humans from the grace of God. Christ’s death and resurrection restored the opportunity for us to get back that grace through the sacrament of baptism.
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Just a thought, but if they recognize original sin, doesn’t it call their religion into question. When I was a mormon, I was taught the fall was necessary. When I was younger, before I woke up, I looked at the creation story through that lens. Also, it would have to change the way they look at the crucifixion and the Garden of Gethsemane. though to this day I can’t figure out the mormon perspective on that.

Come to think about it, I can’t remember the subject of grace coming up, until I became Catholic.

Michael
 
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