G
LDS Apostle gives keynote address at event honoring Cardinal Dolan
- Status
K
kingston1
Guest
I like this video and how the two leaders focused on what we share in common esp. the belief in religious freedom.
T
Tarquin
Guest
The proof is in the pudding - actions that follow words.
And there are two forms of that.
Personal and Institutional.
Humanism includes being nice to one another,
although many humanists seem to despise religion,
and some wish to do away with it 100%.
The compassion of religion is different. The compassion of religion is based on a fundamental recognition of the value of human life above and beyond all other forms of life, and the connection of that life with the Original Life. So people of different religions can and do get along pretty well, for the most part, and that includes Muslims and Jews, Christians and Buddhists. The good ones are patient and accept disagreement in beliefs.
Holland is reported to have said: “Religion has been the principal influence — not the only one, but the principal one — that has kept Western social, political, and cultural life moral to the extent these have been moral.” I totally agree with that! It’s true that the moral codes are different, religion from religion, but they all share the same basic understanding of rights and duties, the “thou shalts” and the “thou shalt nots” of life, whether expressed in religious terms or imposed through political fiat of “musts” and “must nots”.
And there are two forms of that.
Personal and Institutional.
Humanism includes being nice to one another,
although many humanists seem to despise religion,
and some wish to do away with it 100%.
The compassion of religion is different. The compassion of religion is based on a fundamental recognition of the value of human life above and beyond all other forms of life, and the connection of that life with the Original Life. So people of different religions can and do get along pretty well, for the most part, and that includes Muslims and Jews, Christians and Buddhists. The good ones are patient and accept disagreement in beliefs.
Holland is reported to have said: “Religion has been the principal influence — not the only one, but the principal one — that has kept Western social, political, and cultural life moral to the extent these have been moral.” I totally agree with that! It’s true that the moral codes are different, religion from religion, but they all share the same basic understanding of rights and duties, the “thou shalts” and the “thou shalt nots” of life, whether expressed in religious terms or imposed through political fiat of “musts” and “must nots”.
T
twf
Guest
Nice to see
C
Chris-WA
Guest
Good to see the two religions can support each other where common ground exists. Religious freedom is the most important. Also the protection of life from conception to natural death.
Interesting that Elder Holland was part of this story. He has a history of saying some fairly bizarre things in his talks from time to time. Here is one of his recent talks that will give you a good idea of how LDS leaders think about their church in the world and what he thinks about members who leave it:
youtube.com/watch?v=K4_LcENySzQ
***…I am so furious with people who leave this church. I don’t know whether furious is a good apostolic word. But I am. What on earth kind of conviction is that? What kind of patty-cake, taffy-pulled experience is that? As if, as if none of this ever mattered; as if nothing in our contemporary life mattered; as if this was all just supposed to be just exactly the way I want it? And answered every one of my questions - and pursue this and occupy that - and defy this and them maybe I’ll be a Latter Day Saint. Well, there’s too much Irish in me for that.
This church means everything to me. Everything. I don’t care what happens; I don’t care what price has to be paid, as painful as that can be; and as much as I don’t want to invite the test as much as I don’t want to sound arrogant, or self-confident, or filled with any kind of pride other than the love of the Lord - this church means everything to me. And I’m not going to leave it. And I’m not to let you leave it. And if there’s anybody in this room who’s investigating, I want to talk to you tonight before the clock strikes twelve for you to get in it…**
— Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland’s devotional at the Tempe Arizona Stake Center, April 26, 2016*
This is a message of an LDS leadership that really doesn’t get why so many are leaving. He totally dismissed the legitimate, gut-wrenching struggles so many LDS are having with the church and all its historical and doctrinal problems. He thinks those who leave are just flaky, “patty-cake” people.
Interesting that Elder Holland was part of this story. He has a history of saying some fairly bizarre things in his talks from time to time. Here is one of his recent talks that will give you a good idea of how LDS leaders think about their church in the world and what he thinks about members who leave it:
youtube.com/watch?v=K4_LcENySzQ
***…I am so furious with people who leave this church. I don’t know whether furious is a good apostolic word. But I am. What on earth kind of conviction is that? What kind of patty-cake, taffy-pulled experience is that? As if, as if none of this ever mattered; as if nothing in our contemporary life mattered; as if this was all just supposed to be just exactly the way I want it? And answered every one of my questions - and pursue this and occupy that - and defy this and them maybe I’ll be a Latter Day Saint. Well, there’s too much Irish in me for that.
This church means everything to me. Everything. I don’t care what happens; I don’t care what price has to be paid, as painful as that can be; and as much as I don’t want to invite the test as much as I don’t want to sound arrogant, or self-confident, or filled with any kind of pride other than the love of the Lord - this church means everything to me. And I’m not going to leave it. And I’m not to let you leave it. And if there’s anybody in this room who’s investigating, I want to talk to you tonight before the clock strikes twelve for you to get in it…**
— Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland’s devotional at the Tempe Arizona Stake Center, April 26, 2016*
This is a message of an LDS leadership that really doesn’t get why so many are leaving. He totally dismissed the legitimate, gut-wrenching struggles so many LDS are having with the church and all its historical and doctrinal problems. He thinks those who leave are just flaky, “patty-cake” people.
T
Tarquin
Guest
Full transcript may be found, pdf at exmormon.org/Transcript-of-Apostle-Jeffrey-R-Holland-Tempe-Rescue.pdf
and html at mrm.org/tempe-rescue
I couldn’t find it on lds.org, but didn’t spend much time looking.
His tone of voice makes me wonder if someone offended him in some way, or upset him somehow? His not just talking (preaching), he seems generally beside himself with anger.
What kind of conviction is that, to leave the Mormon Church for another?
Probably a similar kind as that, of a person leaving another church for Mormonism?
It’s what people do. They change their minds, they gain new insight, find better paths. No need to whine about that, or condemn a person for having a strong conviction for something different from what the complainer has a conviction for.
“… as if nothing in our contemporary life mattered; as if this was all JUST SUPPOSED to be [near yelling] JUST EXACTLY the way I want it?” Exactly - as if everything was just supposed to be just exactly the way he wants it. That’s the problem of a closed mind - unable to empathize with others, unable to step out of himself for a moment to try and understand another person from *their *perspective.
and html at mrm.org/tempe-rescue
I couldn’t find it on lds.org, but didn’t spend much time looking.
His tone of voice makes me wonder if someone offended him in some way, or upset him somehow? His not just talking (preaching), he seems generally beside himself with anger.
What kind of conviction is that, to leave the Mormon Church for another?
Probably a similar kind as that, of a person leaving another church for Mormonism?
It’s what people do. They change their minds, they gain new insight, find better paths. No need to whine about that, or condemn a person for having a strong conviction for something different from what the complainer has a conviction for.
“… as if nothing in our contemporary life mattered; as if this was all JUST SUPPOSED to be [near yelling] JUST EXACTLY the way I want it?” Exactly - as if everything was just supposed to be just exactly the way he wants it. That’s the problem of a closed mind - unable to empathize with others, unable to step out of himself for a moment to try and understand another person from *their *perspective.
C
Chris-WA
Guest
Yes very well said. What’s kind of sad is the way his LDS audience just thinks everything he said was great. They all just go along with it, laughing along. Mormons think everything their leaders say is gold, even when it’s garbage. They assign this magical cred to their leaders because after all, their leaders are “prophets, seers, and revelators.”
LDS leaders like Holland have such a warped, close-minded view of the world. In their eyes, if you leave the Mormon church you are just completely lost. There is nothing else out there for you. No happiness, no fulfillment. All is darkness outside of the church. And the leadership just builds that fear into the membership of how bad things are outside the fold. How many times have I heard LDS say, “I just don’t know what I would do without the church?” How about what 99% of the world’s population does? I guess we’re all just miserable out here in Gentile Land. Give me a break.
M
Marie5890
Guest
I sit and think and wonder, when was the last time did an LDS leader shed his blood for the faith?
Martyrs still happen with in the Catholic church, including leaders. Very recently, too.
When our cardinals are given their red vestments, they are reminded they very well will spill their blood for the Gospel, the Bridegroom and His bride, the Church.
I remember when Cardinal Dolan reflected on this very reality when he first became a cardinal, especially when he looked at his brother cardinals who lived in the Middle East.
Its a very real reality for them.
Martyrs still happen with in the Catholic church, including leaders. Very recently, too.
When our cardinals are given their red vestments, they are reminded they very well will spill their blood for the Gospel, the Bridegroom and His bride, the Church.
I remember when Cardinal Dolan reflected on this very reality when he first became a cardinal, especially when he looked at his brother cardinals who lived in the Middle East.
Its a very real reality for them.
T
twf
Guest
How did a news story on a lovely ecumenical gesture become another opportunity to trash Mormonism? If we want to discuss Mormon convictions another thread should be started.
T
Tarquin
Guest
”It’s all grist to the mill.”
Interesting, isn’t it, how the majority of threads, the longer they get, the more they branch out to embrace other pertinent points relative to the opening post.
Some, interested in the whole of a subject, sometimes branch further afield. Others keep on point, addressing their comments to the opening post alone. There isn’t anything wrong with either approach. It’s a bit like the difference between “purists” and “mavericks,” or between “traditionalist” and “nonconformist,” or between “compare and contrast.” We are different.
This thread started with a link to a joint meeting of representatives of quite different denominations. Then a valid contrast was made between humanism and all religions, since different denominations share certain beliefs and behaviors, while non-religious faiths do not. So that, for example, humanists and atheists (and others) would be less likely to share the beliefs and behaviors of the religious, the implication being that religious faiths are more compassionate, cooperative, and active than irreligious faiths.
Additional information was offered about the keynote speaker in the link of the opening post. An extract was given of one of the keynote speaker’s other speeches. I have found that people often want the “context” from which a quote is given. Anticipating that, a link was given to provide readers easy access to the entire context from which the added information had been extracted. I’m sure Holland and everyone rooting for him appreciates that. (A couple of his phrases appeared in “all caps.” That was explained as showing that he had raised his voice at that point.) One might think his remark there – “That’s the problem of a closed mind - unable to empathize with others, unable to step out of himself for a moment to try and understand another person from their perspective.” – is in harmony with his speech which the opening post linked to. And it is. But in another part of the same speech, he is far from “try and understand another person from their perspective” when he condemns people who decide his Mormon Church, calling the experiences which led them to leave for something that they sincerely believed was better (maybe even the Catholic Church) – *“patty-cake, taffy-pulled” *experiences. His conclusion is, “This church means everything to me. Everything. . . . And I’m NOT going to leave it. And I’M NOT GOING TO LET YOU LEAVE IT.”
When I first read the extract, the words seemed a bit unusual for a Mormon leader, but not entirely unacceptable. I have heard “outrage” expressed by leaders of many denominations. In the context however, especially the full video, the keynote speaker did get a little beside himself with anger, hoarsely yelling it seemed, which I though pertinent, partly (only partly) because it is rare for me to see such a leader become so agitated when speaking publicly. In addition, a couple of his statements seemed extreme. I thought, how can inter-religious harmony be achieved when one party excoriates those of his own religion (Mormon) who decide to join another religion (Catholic) that is part of that alleged harmony?
Another contrast was then introduced. It’s easy for a couple of people to say they hold similar beliefs and want to help people. That desire to “help” can be put in action in different ways. I see a clear contrast between the Catholic Church’s history of willing martyrs, and the Mormon Church’s history of retreat from persecution and hardship. Where there has been violence in a country, a region suffers endemic poverty, the Mormon Church withdraws, the Catholic doesn’t bat an eye, continues serving that region. I think the Catholic Church is prepared to shed blood in order to spread Christ’s message and win souls, whereas the Mormon Church, with all due respect to the genuinely Christian and positive moral beliefs they currently espouse, historically has done a contrary thing to souls they believe have sinned beyond the power of God to forgive.
Posts evolve. When addressing the “many points of light” (or whatever) of any subject, comments branch out in all directions. If that were not so, I’m sure there would be fewer threads stringing themselves into hundreds of posts.
Speaking for myself, I have been learning things I had not known before, by reading informative posts that, sometimes unfortunately, stray a ways from the narrow topic of the opening post. So I have to be grateful for them. God bless us everyone.
Z
zaffiroborant
Guest
Keynote speaker at their own event? Why wouldn’t an LDS apostle be the speaker at an event they host?
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
The cynic in me, sees this as a small, unknown, organization trying to use the creds of someone outside of their organization, to gain credibility themselves.
Who knows, but Cardinal Dolan was gracious in attending and accepting the recognition.
H
Horton
Guest
Thanks for that. I didn’t bother to read the article but you’re right, why wouldn’t an LDS speaker at an LDS event.
C
CourtingTex
Guest
Whether Cardinal Dolan or one of us here, I was happy to see that good is noted for the others to see, regardless of religion/etc.
The world is better a result.
The world is better a result.
A
AnimaQuaerenti
Guest
Especially since this small and relatively insignificant denomination still compares the Catholic church to the Great Whore of Babylon. At least they’ve moved on from the stated perspective in the fifties of Communism being the only thing more dangerous in the world than Catholicism.
Yes, and unfortunately, they drill this into family members. My family believes that because I no longer think that God is having intercourse with a harem of Godesses and because I no longer believe in secret handshakes to get to heaven, I have “fallen astray.”
C
Chris-WA
Guest
Yes it’s one of the cult-like characteristics of Mormonism. The leadership encourages the “us vs. them” mentality, the “us vs. the world” view of things. You can hear it in their talks constantly. This is done at all levels down to the ward. As nice as they may be, most LDS I know see all people first as either members or non-members, Mormon or non-Mormon. It’s just how they see the world. They view the world outside the church as immoral, less-than, in some degree of darkness, etc. This view shapes all of their relationships with other people–with their family, friends, co-workers, etc. Most of them don’t even realize they are doing it because it’s so ingrained in them from the time they were kids it just becomes part of who they are.
- Status