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hs_hopeful
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Where did this belief originate? Is it stated in texts unique to the LDS, whether considered scriptural, or not?
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gazelam
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There are clearly echos of this LDS doctrine in the Bible.Where did this belief originate? Is it stated in texts unique to the LDS, whether considered scriptural, or not?
2 Corinthians 4:18 (KJV) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal
Eternal things are clearly not created out of nothing.
Anyway, the doctrine is full blown canonized LDS doctrine (unlike some LDS beliefs that are debated on this forum). It originated via a revelation from Jesus Christ to Joseph Smith which is included in the LDS Doctrine and Covenants.
D&C 93:33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
For an overview of the LDS view of creation ex nihilo see here: en.fairmormon.org/Mormon_view_of_the_creation/Creatio_ex_nihilo
I hope this helps…
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hs_hopeful
Guest
Thanks for the quick and concise reply. This is precisely the sort of information I was seeking.
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truthseeker32
Guest
The Mormon perspective was likely the product of the Enlightenment, which began to promote Nominalism and downplay metaphysics. In other words, the idea that if something exists it is composed of matter grew in popularity during and after the enlightenment, and Mormonism incorporated this and other ideas popular in the 19th century into its cosmology. In a certain sense, Mormons are like materialist atheists. The difference, of course, is that Mormons include God in their list of things that exist.
The biggest issue with the Mormon perspective on matter is the philosophical problem of temporal infinite regress. There are many arguments that demonstrate that temporal, contingent entities cannot have existed forever.
The biggest issue with the Mormon perspective on matter is the philosophical problem of temporal infinite regress. There are many arguments that demonstrate that temporal, contingent entities cannot have existed forever.
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jane_doe
Guest
NVM
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jane_doe
Guest
This is a very good answer.There are clearly echos of this LDS doctrine in the Bible.
2 Corinthians 4:18 (KJV) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal
Eternal things are clearly not created out of nothing.
Anyway, the doctrine is full blown canonized LDS doctrine (unlike some LDS beliefs that are debated on this forum). It originated via a revelation from Jesus Christ to Joseph Smith which is included in the LDS Doctrine and Covenants.
D&C 93:33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
For an overview of the LDS view of creation ex nihilo see here: en.fairmormon.org/Mormon_view_of_the_creation/Creatio_ex_nihilo
I hope this helps…
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
Paul is teaching, as he did several times, that the trials of this life will end, but our life with God, after the resurrection, does not end. He isn’t teaching about matter. He’s teaching about a central doctrine of Christianity: the Resurrection.There are clearly echos of this LDS doctrine in the Bible.
2 Corinthians 4:18 (KJV) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal
Eternal things are clearly not created out of nothing.
Reference Romans 8:24-25 where Paul teaches our hope is in what we do not see. For Christians, our Hope has a name, Jesus Christ and eternal life in His presence. Our hope in the unseen is not in eternal matter, which incidentally, strikes me as the gnostic belief of a plerorma.
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Hatikvah
Guest
I believe (though I have no confirmation) that it comes from the idea that the universe has existed forever, and thus its components must exist forever, because Gods have existed forever in an endless chain in much of LDS thought. This, yes, goes all the way back to Joseph Smith, but it was not fully recognized doctrine until the time of the President Lorenzo Snow.
The ironic thing is that the Book of Mormon fits more with the Bible than with actual LDS theology today (though, the Book of Mormon of course does not agree entirely with Scripture).
The ironic thing is that the Book of Mormon fits more with the Bible than with actual LDS theology today (though, the Book of Mormon of course does not agree entirely with Scripture).
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Chris-WA
Guest
Joseph Smith got his ideas about “eternal” matter and “eternal” intelligence not from Jesus Christ, but from contemporary 19th century sources. LDS are mostly unaware of just how much Joseph’s own environment influenced Mormon doctrine. Joseph Smith owned an 1830 copy of Thomas Dick’s Philosophy of a Future State, wherein it is proposed that matter is eternal and also that the stars are peopled by various orders of intelligences in various stages of evolution towards perfection. Sound familiar? It would sound very familiar to all Mormons. What they don’t know is that these ideas didn’t come from Jesus Christ. They came from Thomas Dick’s book.The Mormon perspective was likely the product of the Enlightenment, which began to promote Nominalism and downplay metaphysics. In other words, the idea that if something exists it is composed of matter grew in popularity during and after the enlightenment, and Mormonism incorporated this and other ideas popular in the 19th century into its cosmology. In a certain sense, Mormons are like materialist atheists. The difference, of course, is that Mormons include God in their list of things that exist.
The biggest issue with the Mormon perspective on matter is the philosophical problem of temporal infinite regress. There are many arguments that demonstrate that temporal, contingent entities cannot have existed forever.
This is also how Joseph wrote The Book of Abraham. Almost 100% of its material comes from five contemporary sources all available to Joseph. The only actual revelation in the BoA is the material he borrowed from a 1769 or later edition of the King James bible (including its errors). The other four sources are Philosophy of a Future State, The Works of Flavius Josephus, Thomas Taylor’s 1816 book–The Six Books of Proclus on the Theology of Plato, and Smith’s study with Hebrew scholar Joshua Seixas during the winter of 1835-3 in Ohio.
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gazelam
Guest
If FAIRMormon can be believed (and I have no reason to believe it can’t) Dick’s book on page 192 states “None but that Eternal Mind which counts the number of the stars, which called them from nothing into existence, and arranged them in the respective stations…”. Clearly, this is creation ex nihilo.Joseph Smith got his ideas about “eternal” matter and “eternal” intelligence not from Jesus Christ, but from contemporary 19th century sources. LDS are mostly unaware of just how much Joseph’s own environment influenced Mormon doctrine. Joseph Smith owned an 1830 copy of Thomas Dick’s Philosophy of a Future State, wherein it is proposed that matter is eternal and also that the stars are peopled by various orders of intelligences in various stages of evolution towards perfection. Sound familiar? It would sound very familiar to all Mormons. What they don’t know is that these ideas didn’t come from Jesus Christ. They came from Thomas Dick’s book.
en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/Plagiarism_accusations/Thomas_Dick
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Jerusha
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