LDS church has not historically taught Christian belief of the Virgin Birth...

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It is not obscure.

I have written on this several times. I’ll try it one more time, though I don’t expect that it will do me any more good this time than it has at any other, but hey; someone may pay attention. Who knows? I do believe in miracles, after all.

Yes. Mormons believe in the virgin birth. We always have. There have been no, repeat, NO quotes from any leader that says that ‘God had sex with Mary.’ None.
I haven’t claimed that they did. That is, they never used so many words, and I made a point to explain how Mormons use that as a plausible justification for an alternate theory.
Now it has been claimed that this is obvious 'by reasons of propriety," but that’s not so. In every single one of those quotes, when the context is examined, we find that the speakers are not referring to sexual intercourse; they were adressing the Trinity.
Absolutely right. A central theme here is the “literal sonship” of Jesus. Sonship in Mormonism is a relationship from physical begetting by a man and woman. (Although in Catholicism the reverse is true! Physical parenting is figurative and divine generation is literal.) So if Christ is the “only-begotten” of the Father, Mormons to take it physically. This gets problematic when you find Mary conceiving by the Holy Ghost, so you need another account. Melvin Ballard, an LDS Apostle, explains it more clearly than most others:

Mary told the story most beautifully when she said that an angel of the Lord came to her and told her that she had found favor in the sight of God, and had come to be worthy of the fulfilment of the promises heretofore made, to become the virgin mother of the Redeemer of the world. She afterwards, referring to the event, said: “God hath done wonderful things unto me.” “And the Holy Ghost came upon her,” is the story, “and she came into the presence of the highest.” No man or woman can live in mortality and survive the presence of the Highest except by the sustaining power of the Holy Ghost. So it came upon her to prepare her for admittance into the divine presence, and the power of the Highest, who is the Father, was present, and overshadowed her, and the holy Child that was born of her was called the Son of God.
Men who deny this, or who think that it degrades our Father, have no true conception of the sacredness of the most marvelous power with which God has endowed mortal men-the power of creation. Even though that power may be abused and may become a mere harp of pleasure to the wicked, nevertheless it is the most sacred and holy and divine function with which God has endowed man. Made holy, it is retained by the Father of us all, and in his exercise of that great and marvelous creative power and function, he did not debase himself, degrade himself, nor debauch his daughter. Thus Christ became the literal Son of a divine Father, and no one else was worthy to be his father.


This text not only argues for a harmony between the siring of Christ by Elohim and the action of the Holy Spirit, but also uses that word “virgin.” Yet one must ask (since Mormon leaders have given an alternative definition of “virgin”), why is he concerned that people might think that what he is describing debases God? Why must he clarify that it involves no degradation or debauchery? Why does he clarify not by denying sex, but by denying lewdness? This leads to your next point:
Believe me, none of the leaders of the church, if they intended to say 'God had sexual intercourse with Mary," would have been measly mouthed about it. They would have come right out and said so. They didn’t…and the reason was that they were talking about (for lack of a better term) genetics, not mechanics.
They had a reason to be measly-mouthed. The begetting of the Jesus was to them an action of such sacredness that they didn’t want to give people an impure impression of something so holy by putting it bluntly. Talmage is eloquent: “That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof.” Indirect language keeps people’s thoughts on that “higher manifestation” rather than the brute image that would otherwise come to mind.
ONE reason that we know this is because of the Book of Mormon. Yep, that book that non-Mormons think is nutty and false…but the thing is, WE don’t. We believe that it was translated by the gift and power of God, and when the birth of Christ is related in THAT, the word used is “virgin.” As in, the English word ‘virgin,’ which means 'maiden." or 'woman who has not had sexual intercourse." Therefore we believe in the virgin birth. Always have. That’s what was taught.
If you can support that definition of virgin from official LDS teaching, it would help your case. We have seen one Apostle giving a less strict definition. I ask then, where in official LDS teaching can I find a definition of Mary’s virginity that amounts to “woman who has not had sexual intercourse”?
That said, have there been Mormons who thought that there was sex involved? Yep, I"m afraid that’s true too. Takes all kinds. However, the fact is, the church does not now, and never has, had as doctrine that God had sexual intercourse with Mary. No matter WHAT tickles the ears of the non and anti Mormons.
Actually, sex doesn’t tickle my ears that hard. I can see from the texts above how in a Mormon worldview, the account of Christ’s physical conception could be viewed as non-obscene. I can take Melvin Ballard at his word. The core problem with that teaching as well as its alternative interpretations is not that it is salacious, but that it is materialistic. It describes a creaturely way of creating, rather than the grandeur we see in Genesis 1, of the God who creates by the word of his power: “For he commanded and they were created.” (Ps. 148:5)
 
The opening post quoted this from Bruce R:

These name-titles all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only; Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers." (Mormon Doctrine, 1979, pages 546-47)

can this really be interpreted any other way than a physical sexual union? I have 5 children and know how they were created, which is normal and natural. Sorry but Bruce R was probably being more genuine than you in this.

Hal
I think it can be something other than a sexual union. Basically, the Mormons believe the Father’s sperm was involved in the virgin birth. That does not mean sexual intercourse was necessary. All Mormons are saying is there was a union of a sperm with an egg just like there is in any other human birth. Any statement a Mormon apostle or prophet made regarding a literal sexual union can be ignored because it is against the teaching of the Book of Mormon and the Bible. Do Catholics really believe that Jesus’ conception did not involve a sperm cell from somewhere? Certainly God could create a sperm cell and impregnate Mary without the need for sexual intercourse.
 
I think it can be something other than a sexual union. Basically, the Mormons believe the Father’s sperm was involved in the virgin birth. That does not mean sexual intercourse was necessary. All Mormons are saying is there was a union of a sperm with an egg just like there is in any other human birth. Any statement a Mormon apostle or prophet made regarding a literal sexual union can be ignored because it is against the teaching of the Book of Mormon and the Bible. Do Catholics really believe that Jesus’ conception did not involve a sperm cell from somewhere? Certainly God could create a sperm cell and impregnate Mary without the need for sexual intercourse.
“…in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers…” seems very clear to me that it involves the sexual act. But I agree with ParkerD, that this was Bruce R’s opinion, though his book “mormon doctrine” is a mormon classic and in most mormon households. He was one of the foremost theologians in mormondom. But ParkerD is right again, there is no official doctrine on it. Some of the other quotes in the OP were by mormon prophets - one would have thought they carried more weight and they are just as clear.

Hal.
 
“…in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers…” seems very clear to me that it involves the sexual act. But I agree with ParkerD, that this was Bruce R’s opinion, though his book “mormon doctrine” is a mormon classic and in most mormon households. He was one of the foremost theologians in mormondom. But ParkerD is right again, there is no official doctrine on it. Some of the other quotes in the OP were by mormon prophets - one would have thought they carried more weight and they are just as clear.

Hal.
Sometimes I think people like Brigham Young just said outlandish things to see what their idiot followers would swallow next. Or maybe they wanted to seem like the smartest guys in the room.
 
Sometimes I think people like Brigham Young just said outlandish things to see what their idiot followers would swallow next. Or maybe they wanted to seem like the smartest guys in the room.
So what exactly is the criteria for lds doctrine and has it always been this way from day one?
 
So what exactly is the criteria for lds doctrine and has it always been this way from day one?
I have no idea. I guess it is whatever the Mormon Church currently says it is. I do think there is very little in Mormonism that is dogmatically taught – there is a reason they don’t have something equivalent to a catechism. From what I can tell as long as a Mormon accepts the Articles of Faith, he/she is allowed to pretty much have whatever belief he/she wants to believe. Perhaps Mormons care more about how a person actually lives life than about doctrine.
 
I think it can be something other than a sexual union. Basically, the Mormons believe the Father’s sperm was involved in the virgin birth. That does not mean sexual intercourse was necessary. All Mormons are saying is there was a union of a sperm with an egg just like there is in any other human birth. Any statement a Mormon apostle or prophet made regarding a literal sexual union can be ignored because it is against the teaching of the Book of Mormon and the Bible. Do Catholics really believe that Jesus’ conception did not involve a sperm cell from somewhere? Certainly God could create a sperm cell and impregnate Mary without the need for sexual intercourse.
You can’t ignore those statements for contradicting the BOM and the Bible, because the LDS leaders interpret both texts in light of Brigham Young’s teaching. The redefinition of “virgin” prevents any contradiction with the BOM, and Mormon Apostles like Melvin Ballard in the text I cite above argue for a harmony between Young’s account and the action of the Holy Spirit in Luke: Jesus was conceived “by the power of the Holy Spirit” but not “by the Holy Spirit.” This is because the Spirit’s overshadowing was necessary to sustain Mary in the presence of the Most High as he sired Jesus.

The “genetic” account is a modern theory unknown to the men who originated this teaching. Their high theophanic interpretation of Mary’s experience in the conception of Jesus, obviously refers to an interpersonal and physical encounter. This is evident in text after text.
Sometimes I think people like Brigham Young just said outlandish things to see what their idiot followers would swallow next. Or maybe they wanted to seem like the smartest guys in the room.
If that is what you think, you should do some homework and rethink it. Young is, in my opinion, an admirably logical thinker; he seems outlandish only because he is uncommonly brave in following his premises to their conclusions. His view of the “virgin” birth, for instance, is a rigorous application of the Mormon conception of Fatherhood and Sonship. Mormonism doesn’t have any doctrine of eternal processions to explain how Jesus is God’s Son, so Young boldly embraces the alternative: he is the only-begotten “in the flesh,” as the modern LDS Church puts it.
 
You can’t ignore those statements for contradicting the BOM and the Bible, because the LDS leaders interpret both texts in light of Brigham Young’s teaching. The redefinition of “virgin” prevents any contradiction with the BOM, and Mormon Apostles like Melvin Ballard in the text I cite above argue for a harmony between Young’s account and the action of the Holy Spirit in Luke: Jesus was conceived “by the power of the Holy Spirit” but not “by the Holy Spirit.” This is because the Spirit’s overshadowing was necessary to sustain Mary in the presence of the Most High as he sired Jesus.

The “genetic” account is a modern theory unknown to the men who originated this teaching. Their high theophanic interpretation of Mary’s experience in the conception of Jesus, obviously refers to an interpersonal and physical encounter. This is evident in text after text.

If that is what you think, you should do some homework and rethink it. Young is, in my opinion, an admirably logical thinker; he seems outlandish only because he is uncommonly brave in following his premises to their conclusions. His view of the “virgin” birth, for instance, is a rigorous application of the Mormon conception of Fatherhood and Sonship. Mormonism doesn’t have any doctrine of eternal processions to explain how Jesus is God’s Son, so Young boldly embraces the alternative: he is the only-begotten “in the flesh,” as the modern LDS Church puts it.
I don’t know. Mormon theology is like trying to nail jello to a wall. I don’t think you can really say that Mormons believe much of anything for certain beyond the belief their church is the only true church. Brigham Young’s teachings have essentially become irrelevant to them unless it supports something currently taught. And it’s almost impossible to really determine what is currently taught. These days they pretty much teach whatever the Mormon PR machine thinks will help them be accepted by the world at large.
 
This isn’t about sex at all. Here again in this belief mormonism takes down the splendour of God and attempts to rebuild it in the image of man. That’s all that the mormon god is - a very powerful man. Rather than elevate the human, mormonism drags God down. He becomes a tribal warlord, more powerful than some, less powerful than others. A man who once was a human on another earth who was elevated to this position. One of his attributes is that he has a physical body - and therefore cannot be omniscient or infinite. He becomes finite restricted to a planet near Kolob. His influence is left to the mormon holy spirit. And so, he has a physical relationship with Mary to sire Jesus !! He’s a man afterall. Perhaps he has other physical needs to ?

so no, it isn’t the salaciousness of it, it is the denigrating god to something like us. It is just another example of the folly and heresy of mormon doctrine.

Perhaps the mormon god is really like this. Perhaps the thing that they call god wants to drag us down to this level. Anything to demean the true God who will vanquish this mormon god totally at the final judgment.

God bless,

Hal.
 
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