LDS Ordinances for the Dead and Catholic Records - New Thoughts

[Reepicheep]

What is your objection to proxy work?

I don’t want the LDS to be able to claim that my deceased (Catholic) mother, or my deceased (Catholic) father are LDS.
I don’t want records made that give that impression.
I don’t want it to be possible that my own name should be so used after my death.

…Let me put it this way. Would you (I address this question to any members of the LDS who read it) want to be entered into the archives of the Roman Catholic Church as baptized Catholics?
Would you be willing to allow your LDS parents, or other relatives, to be so entered?

 

[Snow]

I don’t want the LDS to be able to claim that my deceased (Catholic) mother, or my deceased (Catholic) father are LDS.
I don’t want records made that give that impression.
I don’t want it to be possible that my own name should be so used after my death.

Where on earth did you get the notion that proxy work makes the dead person LDS?

…Let me put it this way. Would you (I address this question to any members of the LDS who read it) want to be entered into the archives of the Roman Catholic Church as baptized Catholics?
Would you be willing to allow your LDS parents, or other relatives, to be so entered?

That’s a different matter since proxy baptism don’t make you a member of the The Church of Jesus Christ… but, if you were to perform a proxy Catholic baptism on me, or say Catholic prayers for the dead on my behalf, or whatever, of course I wouldn’t object. Be real. There’s nothing to object to. Your beliefs don’t much matter to me.

 

[flameburns623]

Catholics already ‘baptise’ the non-Catholic saved–“Outside the Catholic Church–No salvation”. Your (hypothetical) deceased Pentecostal sister-in-law or my deceased Baptist and Campbellite grandparents, if they are in Heaven at all–are now “Catholics” by Catholic dogma regarding “baptism by desire”. Of course, they’re probably not yet entered into the full glory of God’s presence, as they are undergoing purgatory for some undisclosed time. Your prayers for dead, especially for your own deceased family members, but even for the deceased whom you don’t even know–are supposed to be meritorious by proxy on behalf of those departed. Stick a pebble in your shoe and offer up the slight discomfort it causes on behalf of the dead and you are performing a work of mortification on behalf of the dead. Give a couple of hours this Christmas to ringing a bell for the poor–and you can offer up the time as a penance for your own sins and also for the poor souls in Purgatory.

What Mormons teach is not really all that different. Anyone who is to achieve the Celestial Kingdom of Heaven–and personal exaltation within that Celestial degree–is going to have to choose to become Latter-Day Saint. The ordinances done by the living Mormons on behalf of the dead are conditional–your dead mother or father still have to accept the LDS gospel in the afterlife and no one here can ever know for certain that has happened. The LDS Church does not and cannot claim that because proxy work has been done on behalf of someone, that person is now a member of the CoJCoLDS. Membership statistics, in any case, count only LIVE members, not the deceased.

I have heard some speculation that proxy work not needed on behalf of one person may ultimately be applied to another person who does need it–but that is purely speculative within LDS theology. It is somewhat akin to the idea that if my prayers for my deceased grandparents are no longer needed on their behalf–my prayers still will be applied by God to other souls who do need such prayers.

 

[twopekinguys]

You appear clueless - which begs the question, why are you posting on something you know nothing about.

We don’t baptize the individual. A proxy ordinance is performed. A person who is now dead may choose, or not, to accept the proxy ordinance.

Apparently you are not Catholic and not aware of Catholic prayers for the dead whereby the faithful may make efficacious prayers and almsgiving for those that didn’t make their penance while alive.

Relax dear, you’re wound way to tight.

First of all, never assume anything.

Second, your continual rude comments toward posters on this board is uncalled for. It is a sign that you your self have nothing constructive to counter their statements with…i.e. bad pasta?, wound too tight? And by the way, you don’t know me, so please refrain from ever calling me “dear” again.

I am well aware of prayers for the dead, thank you very much, which is something totally different than proxy baptisms. Try sticking to the topic. Diversion is not your strong suit.

If no one should be offended by the proxy baptisms, why is the mormon church still baptizing holocaust victims after they signed an agreement with UJA? Clearly someone higher up in the mormon church agreed, and signed the agreement.

Why haven’t you addressed that?

 

[twopekinguys]

Dear God,

If you aren’t sure who I am, please check with the mormon church records. Thanks.

Love,
Rebecca

PS:

BRAVO!!! ENCORE!! ENCORE!!!

 

[Snow]

And if Protestants “feel badly” because you pray for their dead ones in Purgatory, or nonbelievers “feel badly” that you pray for their conversion???

You have no right to “feel” anything about what Mormons do by proxy for those who are deceased. You haven’t any real right to even think about it, beyond the abstract fact of being aware it is one of their religious practices. No physical or emotional coercion is being exerted upon you nor upon the deceased by the pious-if-misguided act of proxy baptism.

And the understanding of LDS about the afterlife is that the non-LDS deceased are in a ‘Spirit Prison’ from which they can gain release at judgement day–IF they accept in Spirit Prison the LDS gospel and IF someone has performed on their behalf certain ‘ordinances’ including baptism, which one can ordinarily only receive in this lifetime. God, presumably will either know of Himself for whom such ordinances have and have not been performed–or He will have free access to the LDS Church genealogical records.

No one who receives proxy baptism is supposed to be counted as members of the LDS Church, so such practices do not inflate their memberships figures. One’s free will is fully preserved in the afterlife so that no one who is ‘baptised’ by proxy is in any way compelled to become Mormon in the afterlife. To the contrary, most Mormons understand that those who are to some degree culpable in their own right for not receiving the LDS gospel on Earth will find it correspondingly difficult to receive that gospel in Spirit Prison. No details are given as to why this is, but it is a commonly-expressed view.

If Mormon eschatology turned out to be true, proxy ordinances would be a lovely act of kindness, often extended to absolute strangers. I think I would be warmed by the love that such an act represents rather than ‘feeling badly’ that it is being performed.

I’m sorry - we are going to have award a penalty point for rational thinking.

Please do not muck things up with accuracy and reasonableness…

I would, however, disagreee that people don’t have the right to “feel” one way or the other about this or that… People can choose to get all bent or pretend to be bent about whatever they want… and other’s have the right to respond to their pretend distress.

 

[BDawg]

Hi flameburns623,

Thank you for trying to be reasonable about this. Frankly, most LDS are flabbergasted by the big deal some people make of this issue. It seems like just another cheap excuse for bigots to start raging against us, when it is obvious that if the LDS religion is false, then proxy ordinances amount to exactly… nothing.

It is also refreshing to see one of the Catholic posters on the Non-Catholic Religions board checking to see if he is living in a glass house before throwing stones. As you point out, Catholics believe that if someone who followed another faith ends up in heaven, it is because they joined the Catholic Church via baptism of desire. Some people probably think that belief is “disrespectful” of other faiths, but such people are usually the sort of mush-for-brains that think “tolerance” means not making any strong claims that might contradict someone else’s strong claims.

Likewise, I think it would be stupid for LDS people to get offended because of the RCC’s decision not to allow us to copy Parish records. If they don’t want to support our efforts, that’s up to them. But then, I’ve never actually heard of an LDS person getting all bent out of shape about the issue. (I’m sure there are a few, though.)

But the sort of people who get all bent out of shape about the Mormons’ proxy baptisms are so full of bigotry and hatred that they tend to project those attitudes on others. For instance, a couple posters here have even gone so far as to claim that the LDS “demand” access to Catholic records. Huh? When? I thought we asked politely for access, were granted it for a while, and later that access was withdrawn. And I still have never heard of any “demands” being made.

Anyway, I ALWAYS appreciate it when someone on this board has the guts to call others of their own faith on the carpet for bad behavior, dissemination of false information, and general irrationality. We tend to separate into our “teams,” and only critically analyze what posters on the other “teams” say. There’s no use discussing anything with people like that.

 

[Stephen168]

No research is done regarding the individual you are supposedly baptizing.

I wonder about that myself. Do they know if the person has been versed in mormonisn and rejected it before they are baptized them? Maybe a mormon will clear it up for us.

You appear clueless - which begs the question, why are you posting on something you know nothing about.

Oh, well.

Maybe a kind mormon without a chip on their shoulder will clear it up for us?

 

[zaffiroborant]

Likewise, I think it would be stupid for LDS people to get offended because of the RCC’s decision not to allow us to copy Parish records. If they don’t want to support our efforts, that’s up to them. But then, I’ve never actually heard of an LDS person getting all bent out of shape about the issue. (I’m sure there are a few, though.)

.

There were quite a vocal bunch on MAAD bent out of shape over the RCC’s decision I don’t remember them being called on being offended.

 

[BDawg]

I wonder about that myself. Do they know if the person has been versed in mormonisn and rejected it before they are baptized them? Maybe a mormon will clear it up for us.

Oh, well.

Maybe a kind mormon without a chip on their shoulder will clear it up for us?

Hi Stephen,

Mormon proxy baptisms are considered “an offer.” We perform the sacraments on behalf of everyone, and if they were the sort of person who would have accepted the Gospel in life, given a proper chance, then they accept it in the world of spirits, and the sacraments are done for them. The thing is, we can’t be the judge of who received a “proper chance,” because even if they were introduced to Mormonism in life, what if the Mormons who introduced them were idiots? What if God had other plans for their mortal mission?

For Mormons, proxy sacraments are a way of expressing our desire to bring everyone into oneness with each other, and with God (John 17). I suspect that very similar motivations are behind the Catholic practice of prayers for the dead and the doctrine of the “communion of the saints.”

 

[BDawg]

There were quite a vocal bunch on MAAD bent out of shape over the RCC’s decision I don’t remember them being called on being offended.

If I were there, I would have. People in general get bent out of shape over pretty stupid stuff.