LDS Question - What happens to people who leave the church?

[KathleenGee]

Xavierlives…

Some thing from the Far Side…with some Christmas joy…

We Catholics believe in praying for the dead. We pray for our loved ones who have passed on…

The bishop prays for everybody who lives in his diocesan boundaries…ours go the Pacific Ocean up north to the border and then down south to another border, and then east to the mountains. The pastors pray for everybody in their parish boundaries. I mean everybody. You don’t have to be Catholic.

So if you don’t go back to a certain church, it is OK because we pray…especially for the dead who have passed on to eternal life…people we don’t know…we just pray for them.

So however you go, wherever you go, you know we go, (there’s an old song out there that goes like that) we go with prayers for you…

Merry Christmas…oh, and there is a mystical tradition that many souls leave purgatory for heaven at Christmas time.

 

[Xavierlives]

Exactly! In death you don’t, that means that your expression of preference after you die doesn’t count for much either. After all, you are dead! If you don’t believe that any of this is true, what do you care? You are not here for it to affect you; neither do you have any say as to whether it should be done or not! So it is not as simple as you think—or rather, it is simple; but the simplicity of it works against you.

I can easily reject Joseph Smith as a fraud now but death will obvously silence my voice and no one will continue to be my champion. I should have a say in life and in death and my voice in life should carry over into death. If, as you say, after I die, my expression of preference doesn’t count to something, than I can count on being besmsrched.

Not exactly. It is not a common occurrence. But a few instances of it have been known. More commonly Church members have had spiritual experiences that have indicated to them in some way that their deceased relatives have accepted the gospel in the spirit world, and are pleased with the work that their living relatives have done on their behalf.

Why wouldn’t they say this for anyone since the dead relative can’t defend their good name?

 

[KathleenGee]

Xavierlives,

Trust in God’s mercy and prayers of the universal Church…when you die, you will face God and if you desire Him, you will not be alone but with Him, and with others of the Body of Christ who continue to proceed to Him until all desire to sin is gone. Then you are in full communion with the Lord and His saints.

There is no spirit world as such.

 

[zerinus]

I can easily reject Joseph Smith as a fraud now but death will obvously silence my voice and no one will continue to be my champion. I should have a say in life and in death and my voice in life should carry over into death. If, as you say, after I die, my expression of preference doesn’t count to something, than I can count on being besmsrched.

You can say that all you want, but I don’t know of any law that agrees with you. If I published a defamatory article about a living person, he can take me to court and and if found guilty, I would be liable to a fine or other punishments. It has happened to lots of newspapers who have published false accusations about living persons. But the same rule does not apply to a dead person. If you published a defamatory article about a dead person, I don’t know of any law in the US at least under which you could be charged. If his surviving descendants took offence and wanted to clear his name, the most they could do would be to publish a counter-article defending his reputation; but they couldn’t take you to court for defaming their great grandpa!

Not exactly. It is not a common occurrence. But a few instances of it have been known. More commonly Church members have had spiritual experiences that have indicated to them in some way that their deceased relatives have accepted the gospel in the spirit world, and are pleased with the work that their living relatives have done on their behalf.

You are looking at it the wrong way. We think that our Church members would not have any reason to lie about such a matter; and if one of you hypothetical ancestors became a Mormon and then claimed that you had appeared to him in a dream, and told him that you had repented of your unbelief and accepted the restored gospel in the spirit world, the assumption would be that he is telling the truth, and we would have no reason to question his spiritual experience.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Xavierlives…

Some thing from the Far Side…with some Christmas joy…

We Catholics believe in praying for the dead. We pray for our loved ones who have passed on…

The bishop prays for everybody who lives in his diocesan boundaries…ours go the Pacific Ocean up north to the border and then down south to another border, and then east to the mountains. The pastors pray for everybody in their parish boundaries. I mean everybody. You don’t have to be Catholic.

So if you don’t go back to a certain church, it is OK because we pray…especially for the dead who have passed on to eternal life…people we don’t know…we just pray for them.

So however you go, wherever you go, you know we go, (there’s an old song out there that goes like that) we go with prayers for you…

Merry Christmas…oh, and there is a mystical tradition that many souls leave purgatory for heaven at Christmas time.

Kathleen,

You are so kind. You always bring words of kindness and remind us of the joy in Christ and the joy of our salvation.

May God bless you and your family, Kathleen.

Happy Christmas,
Anna

 

[KathleenGee]

Thank you, Anna!

I was thinking of you today and your posts and seeking…May the Lord especially bless you this Christmas!

kathleen

 

[Xavierlives]

Xavierlives,

Trust in God’s mercy and prayers of the universal Church…when you die, you will face God and if you desire Him, you will not be alone but with Him, and with others of the Body of Christ who continue to proceed to Him until all desire to sin is gone. Then you are in full communion with the Lord and His saints.

There is no spirit world as such.

Well, my conversation is more of a physical world thing. They will be proved wrong in death and all of this will be meaningless. It is more meaningful that the dead are unprotected and run through the Mormon Church without a what-for.

 

[Xavierlives]

You can say that all you want, but I don’t know of any law that agrees with you. If I published a defamatory article about a living person, he can take me to court and and if found guilty, I would be liable to a fine or other punishments. It has happened to lots of newspapers who have published false accusations about living persons. But the same rule does not apply to a dead person. If you published a defamatory article about a dead person, I don’t know of any law in the US at least under which you could be charged. If his surviving descendants took offence and wanted to clear his name, the most they could do would be to publish a counter-article defending his reputation; but they couldn’t take you to court for defaming their great grandpa!

A defamation action is a tort or it is a civil action (not that it really matters here, but there is no fine). You are right though that no one has tried a case on this subject because, well, the dead cannot bring suit. Furthermore, I can’t bring a suit, in life, because it isn’t ripe. So, while the Mormons will continue to baptize the dead, I will be vindicated in death.

You are looking at it the wrong way. We think that our Church members would not have any reason to lie about such a matter; and if one of you hypothetical ancestors became a Mormon and then claimed that you had appeared to him in a dream, and told him that you had repented of your unbelief and accepted the restored gospel in the spirit world, the assumption would be that he is telling the truth, and we would have no reason to question his spiritual experience.

Well, other than the fact that I stand here now saying, I know the truth, and I will know that same truth in death and if someone says I appeared to them in a dream, then it is a lie, both from my lips and from the Word.

 

[zerinus]

A defamation action is a tort or it is a civil action (not that it really matters here, but there is no fine). You are right though that no one has tried a case on this subject because, well, the dead cannot bring suit. Furthermore, I can’t bring a suit, in life, because it isn’t ripe. So, while the Mormons will continue to baptize the dead, I will be vindicated in death.

Thank you for agreeing with me.

Well, other than the fact that I stand here now saying, I know the truth, and I will know that same truth in death and if someone says I appeared to them in a dream, then it is a lie, both from my lips and from the Word.

The trouble with that is that not everyone agrees with you. I am every bit as convinced that Mormonism is true as you seem to be that it is false. Who is to say that you are right and I am wrong? And the “Word” also agrees with me!

 

[KathleenGee]

The Lord called us to be one…and Mormonism is so different from Catholicism…yet there are aspects of it that we can share common fruits of good will.

Our eternal life belongs to God and He is the one Who sees us face to face and He will be the one to answer people’s greatest desires and their decisions…He did not make us puppets or beholden to the bondage of others over the destiny of our souls.

 

[Xavierlives]

Thank you for agreeing with me.

Agree that no one has brought suit? Or that it is actionable? The fact that no one has bought suit is quite different than whether it is actionable. I’d have to research the actionable part. The fact that it is only ripe in death but not actionable in death, might force it to be ripe in life and actionable in life. Thanks for forcing me to think this out. Maybe a suit is hiding in there somewhere afterall.

The only problem would be really the fact that it would settle with an agreement between the parties that the church would not add them to the roles. Who knows how long that would hold them off?

And talk about a David v. Goliath lawsuit.

The trouble with that is that not everyone agrees with you. I am every bit as convinced that Mormonism is true as you seem to be that it is false. Who is to say that you are right and I am wrong? And the “Word” also agrees with me!

Your scriptures might agree but the Word contradicts it. The fact that you choose to ignore the Bible in places to build your faith does not make your scripture any more true. The mountains sing to God’s truth. The empty grave sings to the truth. The problem is spiritual blindness is common. The scales covering your eyes are so thick it would take a miracle to remove them. All you have to do is reach out and touch that garment as it passes. You have to have that amount of faith and just reach out. Jesus will know and acknowledge you.

 

[KathleenGee]

Amen.

I am coming to the end of my brief interaction with Mormonism because of its complete blackout on the truth.

The Lord did not leave us without shepherds.

 

[zerinus]

Agree that no one has brought suit? Or that it is actionable? The fact that no one has bought suit is quite different than whether it is actionable. I’d have to research the actionable part. The fact that it is only ripe in death but not actionable in death, might force it to be ripe in life and actionable in life. Thanks for forcing me to think this out. Maybe a suit is hiding in there somewhere afterall.

The only problem would be really the fact that it would settle with an agreement between the parties that the church would not add them to the roles. Who knows how long that would hold them off?

And talk about a David v. Goliath lawsuit.

I look forward to you making history by bringing such a law suit and winning it.

Your scriptures might agree but the Word contradicts it. The fact that you choose to ignore the Bible in places to build your faith does not make your scripture any more true. The mountains sing to God’s truth. The empty grave sings to the truth. The problem is spiritual blindness is common. The scales covering your eyes are so thick it would take a miracle to remove them. All you have to do is reach out and touch that garment as it passes. You have to have that amount of faith and just reach out. Jesus will know and acknowledge you.

I think you are projecting your own attributes and state of mind on me. The truth is that it is your belief system that is contradicted by “the Word;” and you are the one who “choose to ignore the Bible in places to build your faith” on the false and perverse theology of Martin Luther and John Calvin. “The empty grave signs to the truth.” Your spiritual blindness is palpable. Your scales of darkness are too thick for you to see the falsities of Martin Luther and John Calvin. I would rather be a Catholic than a Protestant any day! It is an abomination before God—idolatry and wickedness. You know absolutely nothing about “reaching out and touching” that garment. You are like that “blind Pharisee” whom the Lord repeatedly condemned. You claim that you see, while in reality you are blind like them.

 

[Xavierlives]

I look forward to you making history by bringing such a law suit and winning it.

I think you are projecting your own attributes and state of mind on me. The truth is that it is your belief system that is contradicted by “the Word;” and you are the one who “choose to ignore the Bible in places to build your faith” on the false and perverse theology of Martin Luther and John Calvin. “The empty grave signs to the truth.” Your spiritual blindness is palpable. Your scales of darkness are too thick for you to see the falsities of Martin Luther and John Calvin. I would rather be a Catholic than a Protestant any day! It is an abomination before God—idolatry and wickedness. You know absolutely nothing about “reaching out and touching” that garment. You are like that “blind Pharisee” whom the Lord repeatedly condemned. You claim that you see, while in reality you are blind like them.

Yeah, you can only take swipes at Luther and Calvin, huh? It makes no sense though. Your faith says the Catholic Church is apostate but say you would rather be Catholic. The you say I am blind, but I can see the simple truth. The reason I see the truth is because the Bible is a book of truths.

Lets take one truth:

1. No man has seen God:
   a. God said it.(Exodus 33:20)
   b. Jesus said (John 6:46)
   c. John said it (John 1:18)
   d. Paul said it (Col. 1:15; 1 Tim. 5:16)
2. Joseph Smith said he saw God. History 1:17
   It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

Now using wisdom God has given me, I see consistency in #1 and inconsistency in #2.
If any man now has to explain the exception to God’s rule, there is a problem. That man needs to show witness. According to Jewish law, he cannot testify for himself. Jesus offers a human witness, His Father as a witness, and the scriptures as a linear witness. This is all exceptionally important since

at LDS.org we read: “[The First Vision is] the most significant singular event in the world since the resurrection of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The First Vision is the very foundation of this Church, and it is my conviction that each member of this Church performs his duty in direct ratio to his personal testimony and faith in the First Vision” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1973, 102; or Ensign, Jan. 1974, 87).

I guess a blind man can see the truth. There is no shame in being wrong. You were duped. There are powerful forces at play, trying to make people think they will be gods, when there is only one God. There are powerful forces trying to make people think they are equal to Jesus, when we are his children. There are powerful forces who are trying to destroy what God has built up. Remember, the angels rejoice when someone returns to him. You can get out of the lies, out of the darkness and find his truth.

 

[dianaiad]

Amen.

I am coming to the end of my brief interaction with Mormonism because of its complete blackout on the truth.

The Lord did not leave us without shepherds.

“complete blackout on the truth?”

Well, Merry Christmas anyway, Kathleen…

 

[zerinus]

Yeah, you can only take swipes at Luther and Calvin, huh? It makes no sense though. Your faith says the Catholic Church is apostate but say you would rather be Catholic. The you say I am blind, but I can see the simple truth. The reason I see the truth is because the Bible is a book of truths.

Lets take one truth:

1. No man has seen God:
   a. God said it.(Exodus 33:20)
   b. Jesus said (John 6:46)
   c. John said it (John 1:18)
   d. Paul said it (Col. 1:15; 1 Tim. 5:16)
2. Joseph Smith said he saw God. History 1:17
   It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

Now using wisdom God has given me, I see consistency in #1 and inconsistency in #2.
If any man now has to explain the exception to God’s rule, there is a problem. That man needs to show witness. According to Jewish law, he cannot testify for himself. Jesus offers a human witness, His Father as a witness, and the scriptures as a linear witness. This is all exceptionally important since

at LDS.org we read: “[The First Vision is] the most significant singular event in the world since the resurrection of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The First Vision is the very foundation of this Church, and it is my conviction that each member of this Church performs his duty in direct ratio to his personal testimony and faith in the First Vision” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1973, 102; or Ensign, Jan. 1974, 87).

I guess a blind man can see the truth. There is no shame in being wrong. You were duped. There are powerful forces at play, trying to make people think they will be gods, when there is only one God. There are powerful forces trying to make people think they are equal to Jesus, when we are his children. There are powerful forces who are trying to destroy what God has built up. Remember, the angels rejoice when someone returns to him. You can get out of the lies, out of the darkness and find his truth.

Your blindness obviously comes from your inability to think for yourself, and letting others doing your thinking for you. You don’t know the Bible. You only know what other people have told you. If you knew the Bible, you would know that there are more recorded instances of people actually seeing God, than saying that He is invisible:

Genesis 18:

1 And the Lord appeared unto him [Abraham] in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

Genesis 32:

30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Exodus 24:

9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Judges 13:

22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

1 Kings 22:

19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

2 Chronicles 18:

18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the Lord; I saw the Lord sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.

Isaiah 6:

1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

Amos 9:

1 I Saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, Smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake: and cut them in the head, all of them; and I will slay the last of them with the sword: he that fleeth of them shall not flee away, and he that escapeth of them shall not be delivered.

Matthew 5:

8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

 

[KathleenGee]

Merry Christmas, Dianaid,

By blackout, I mean not knowing the foundation the Apostles left to their successors…

For example, we say our salvation is in our faith…Our faith saves us.

It took all the time up to the Council of Nicea…the Nicene creed t we have been professing at Mass every Sunday for 1800 years that fully defines Christology.

People believed Christ was True God and True Man. But over the years, they began to loose faith that Christ was also True Man…the more people loose sense of Christ’s humanity, they lose sense of their own and others…and then the abuse and mistreatment of others begin.

So the Nicene Creed added that Christ is True Man…Light of Light, True God of True God, Eternally Begotten…

The Church was spreading quickly throughout the world…the bible is so easy to misinterpret…you have the bishops, deacons, church fathers, TheosisM clarified me…that there were those who added to doctrine…and others who are documental sources that reveal parts of the culture of the church and practices that show the work of continuity and assimilation of faith in the ongoing and work of inculturation…

By this I mean, let’s say the missionaries go into a new culture of people…you identify their beliefs and practices…you affirm what are true movements of the Universal One True God…you study their culture, their history, their difficulties, you show them mercy and redemption of Christ helping them in what they need, you look at their art forms…the linguistics…anthropology…some priests I worked with simply started with Genesis and had the people learn through OT up to St. John the Baptist…and then Mary and then the birth of Jesus we commemorate today. This was their practice that they used and sent to the Vatican for review.

They built Christian communities, used their music and dance formed, began with rituals blessing their crops and with the new faith of the people, then Christianized these blessings for food with the holy name of Jesus. People came for baptism.
And they would go to Mass freely on their own…they found out when we had it in town.

I can go to any Catholic Mass in the world, immediately note the different culture that goes with all the aspects of liturgy, but then after I finish taking it in, I then recognize the same parts of the Mass that go back to antiquity with the same message and sacraments. It was very moving to go to a mud hut at night for people who had not had a priest for some time…and then to see a holy card of Pope John XXIII and another card of the Sacred Heart of Jesus that is my very favorite, on the little table for Mass.

This process more or less is what happened to all the different times and cultures of people that took ongoing day to day work of the clergy with the local catechists…it takes time and many years and errors come up that are redirected.

The story is the same for people all over the world and the foundation and the sacraments were established for the people…and you would have to follow all the historical documents to see that. The bible took a longer time to put together…praying to the Holy Spirit…the work of many people and over a long period of time. So we understand Scripture from the Oral Tradition of Jesus to His Apostles and the successors and theologians work through the Holy Spirit and the teaching magesterium to ensure the transmission of truth is preserved.

I don’t know much of early church history…so detailed…you have to understand events in context of their times. I would be better off taking a class…I have the best text now on liturgy going back to the beginning of Christianity…liturgy is my interest.