Learning about Eastern Theology?

[MatteoRicci]

Greetings all.

I was just wondering if anyone could help me out here. I pretty much got a better-than-layman-though-not-quite-theologian background when it comes to the Scholastic theological tradition of the West.

I’ve always been interested in the rich spiritual treasures of the East, but i’ve never known exactly where to start off or who to read. I mean obviously you can’t get away from names like Palamas, but from my perspective its kind of finding Isolated figures without the context of the tradition itself.

Any thoughts on how i might start? And whose written good comparisons on East/West theology that don’t peter off into often-repeated accusations…?

 

[Wesley7]

I recommend the book Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Fr. Michael Pomazansky.

amazon.com/Orthodox-Dogmatic-Theology-Concise-Exposition/dp/0938635697/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1305340673&sr=8-1 . . .

 

[Vico]

There are many publications of the Fathers of the Church and the Theologians (in the eastern sense of living the faith). The Three called Theologians are:

Saint John the Apostle
Saint Gregory of Nazianzus (b. 330)
Saint Simeon the New Theologian (949–1022).

I like particularly the writings of Saint John of Damascus (Exposition of the Orthodox Faith), and Saint John Chrysotsom (Ancient Christian Writers, vol. 31).

Other excellent sources are:

Saint Gregory of Nyssa
Saint Cyril of Alexandria
Saint Athanasius of Alexandria
Saint Maximus the Confessor (Mystagogy)
Saint Irenaeus of Lyons

Many writings are in Experiancing God by Kenneth Leach.

 

[5Loaves]

Christ is Risen!
Welcome to the Eastern Catholicism Section of CAF.

Any thoughts on how i might start? And whose written good comparisons on East/West theology that don’t peter off into often-repeated accusations…?

Come to Divine Liturgy, Vespers, Orthros… in and EC Church or an Orthodox Church. There is no way to “get” it from books, at least not from books in the absence of experiencing the Liturgy. We say the Liturgy is our catechesis. Here is a resource for locating an Eastern or Oriental Catholic Church parish. Perhaps our Orthodox brothers and sisters can provide help with finding locations for Orthodox parishes.

Also, there are some wonderful CDs of prayers of the Orthodox and Eastern Churches. Submerge yourself in these prayers. A few of my favorites: Good & Faithful Servant
Pascha: Hymns of the Resurrection
Attend, O Heaven: Hymns from Great Lent
Christ is Born! Give Glory! I like this because it has hymns for Nativity of Christ/Christmas.
from the Greek tradition The DIVINE LITURGY in English in Byzantine Chant

 

[5Loaves]

Christ is Born! Give Glory! I like this because it has hymns for Nativity of Christ/Christmas.

It does have hymns but I meant it’s the carols for the Nativity I especially like about this CD… non liturgical but still theological and wonderful.

 

[MatteoRicci]

Come to Divine Liturgy, Vespers, Orthros… in and EC Church or an Orthodox Church. There is no way to “get” it from books, at least not from books in the absence of experiencing the Liturgy. /QUOTE]

Who says i haven’t been looking already?

I guess you can say i’m trying to grasp the “head” part of the issue as well as the heart part.

Its just that when I do start asking the average lay Catholic or Orthodox (whether they be in Communion with Rome or not), about differences and issues many seem to result to a very stilted “either/or” viewpoint

ie: Its Platonism vs. Aristotleanism, Mysticism vs. Rationality, Cataphatic vs. Apophatic. Progression vs. Defense of Tradition. etc. etc.

enough to make one’s head spin! It was actually a friend of mine (who surprisingly isn’t religious at all) who after hearing my issue advised to come here. “Who better to tell you/guide you than those uniquely positioned and living with the issues you’ve raised?”

Thank you and all of you for your suggestions.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I have a few suggestions, for what they’re worth. First of all, attendance at the Divine Liturgy, Vespers and Orthros are certainly the best way you’ll learn Byzantine theology. But it can be difficult to find an Orthodox or Eastern Catholic parish depending on where you live. Secondly, I’d suggest putting zero stock in any comments that try to pit Eastern and Western theology against each other as though they are completely incompatible. Those who claim the West is rationalistic, apophatic, legalistic, etc. have little to no knowledge of the great mystical tradition of the West, and little to no knowledge of its great theological traditions as well. I’ve only come across such ideas from some Orthodox authors and a few Orthodox lay faithful who have gotten their information from Orthodox sources, not Catholic sources.

As far as books are concerned, if you can’t make it to the Liturgical Services, then try finding copies of the Service Books. The Melkite Greek Catholic Eparchy of Newton has a wonderful collection of Service Books for sale through their publishing house. Also, any and all of the books by Archbishop Joseph Raya are a fabulous place to start. Most of his books can be found through Madonna House, although one of the best books by him, “Face of God,” is only available through God With Us Publications or Eastern Christian Publications. You could also check out the Catechetical series published by God With Us Publications.

For an Eastern Catholic perspective on the differences between East and West I’d say look at the writings of Archbishop Elias Zoghby, particularly “A Voice from the Byzantine East” available from Sophia Press (Eparchy of Newton). Another wonderful little book is “Uniatism” by Cyril Korolevsky, available from Eastern Christian Publications. These books do not convey an “us-vs.-them” mentality, but rather just give some illustrations of the differences. Otherwise, I’ve not found anything that’s worthwhile because most everyone else tends to have the “us-vs.-them” mentality.

 

[5Loaves]

I guess you can say i’m trying to grasp the “head” part of the issue as well as the heart part.

Its just that when I do start asking the average lay Catholic or Orthodox (whether they be in Communion with Rome or not), about differences and issues many seem to result to a very stilted “either/or” viewpoint

I understood what you were asking for… and if you’re now saying that what one gets from services and the Divine Liturgy is the heart part but not the head part that is not so. The Eastern head part is very present. It’s just Eastern “head”. If you have a good homilist it is also present in the homily as well. Both my parish priest and the priest at the Russian Orthodox parish I sometimes go to preach very short holilies. They’re like a reduction of balsamic vinegar, or of some wine or juice… packed and intense in the most wonderful way.

If you have a chance to go to the Orientale Lumen Conferences the presenters there are well able to go beyond simple caracatures of the East and West. This year they’re offering webcasts of all the plenary sessions if enough people register for that option by June 1st.:

Online Webcast of OL Conference
New for 15th OL Conference
For the first time, the OL Conference will be broadcast live through an online video webcast. The Opening Session with all Plenary Lectures and Panel Discussions will be viewable online during the conference for just $50 per person. Viewers will be able to send email questions to the moderator at the conference site for the panel discussions.

(Eastern Christian Publications which Phillip Rolfes mentioned as a resource for a book is run by the same folks who put on the OL Conferences.)

 

[MatteoRicci]

As i pursue this matter further…

Are the Melkites the only ones who provide translation for the Byzantine rite? A few Orthodox friends have remarked seeing their materials used even in their churches.

Do the Antochian, Alexandrian, and East Syrian liturgical traditions exist in translation as well?

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

The Melkite, Ruthenian, Ukrainian, Romanian, and Russian sui iuris Catholic Churches all have their own English language liturgical translations. Whether or not they use them is really a parish-to-parish thing. There are Melkite parishes who only do Arabic Liturgies, and there are Ukrainian parishes who only do Ukrainian Liturgies. So it really is a matter of the parish you attend, not to which particular Church it belongs.

It is indeed true that the Melkite liturgical books are sometimes used by English-speaking Orthodox Churches. I’ve even seen their books for sale on Orthodox websites. The translations are good, sometimes lacking in poetic beauty, but still they are some of the best out there that I’ve come across.

The Maronites also have their own English translations of their liturgical services. I’ve been told that the translations are very bad, much like the current English translation of the Ordinary Form of the Mass (which is happily being revised). As to the other particular Oriental Churches such as the Coptic Catholics or Ethiopian Catholics, I don’t know if they have any English translations. I know their Orthodox counterparts do, but the extent to which they use them is again a parish to parish thing and not universal throughout the English speaking world.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I should also mention that many of the Eastern Catholic Churches also use Orthodox liturgical translations, particularly of the variable parts of the Liturgy. My own parish uses the 12-volume Menaion published by Holy Transfiguration Monastery (a non-canonical Orthodox monastery to be sure, but their Liturgical translations are supurb and in wide circulation among Eastern Catholics and Orthodox alike). Some parishes, I understand, also use the Menaion published by St. John of Kronstadt Press (another beautifully translated Menaion). I would not be surprised if there are Melkite parishes that use translations provided by the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese. I know there are Melkite parishes that use the translations of the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese along with the musical settings of Basil Kazan, and I believe some of the Antiochian Orthodox use the Melkite translations as well. So there is a lot of trading back and forth.

 

[5Loaves]

I should also mention that many of the Eastern Catholic Churches also use Orthodox liturgical translations, particularly of the variable parts of the Liturgy.

I have a thin little paperback “The Byzantine Liturgy: A new English Translation of the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great, Third Revised Edition” put out by the Russian Center at Fordum Copyright 1956 (imprimautur from NY, Baltimore, and NY Provincial of the SJs.) The Liturgy would have been entirely in Church Slavonic in my parish at that time, and for long after that time so I’m not sure what this booklet was used for, but some copies had parishioners names in them so they did seem to be used. It’s really a very nice booklet. It’s got the red black thing… do the red say the black. Our DL is 90+% in English now. Most of what we use comes from the OCA DL and services. With a few small exceptions the 1956 “Byzantine Liturgy” translation from Fordum seems almost identical to the present OCA translation.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I have a thin little paperback “The Byzantine Liturgy: A new English Translation of the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great, Third Revised Edition” put out by the Russian Center at Fordum Copyright 1956 (imprimautur from NY, Baltimore, and NY Provincial of the SJs.) The Liturgy would have been entirely in Church Slavonic in my parish at that time, and for long after that time so I’m not sure what this booklet was used for, but some copies had parishioners names in them so they did seem to be used. It’s really a very nice booklet. It’s got the red black thing… do the red say the black. Our DL is 90+% in English now. Most of what we use comes from the OCA DL and services. With a few small exceptions the 1956 “Byzantine Liturgy” translation from Fordum seems almost identical to the present OCA translation.

I LOVE that translation of the Liturgy. There are one or two minor changes I’d make to it, but as far as translations go it’s my favorite. You might be interested to know that Fr. Robert Taft, S.J. also considers that translation to be the best English translation available (or so he told me in a private conversation). I wish I had a copy of it, but I have no clue where to find it. As much as I enjoy Kyr Raya’s translation and the revised version of it put out by the Eparchy of Newton, they feel like they are lacking in a number of places.

My own parish uses the Raya translation of the DL and the Eparchy of Newton’s Horologion, but otherwise pretty much all the variable parts of the Liturgy are taken from Orthodox service books, especially the Menaion of Holy Transfiguration Monastery. Although the Troparia and Kontakia that we sing are from the Eparchy of Newton 95% of the time. I do love how much trading goes on between the Catholics and the Orthodox, oftentime without the Orthodox realizing that they’re using Catholic books.

 

[5Loaves]

I LOVE that translation of the Liturgy. There are one or two minor changes I’d make to it, but as far as translations go it’s my favorite. You might be interested to know that Fr. Robert Taft, S.J. also considers that translation to be the best English translation available (or so he told me in a private conversation). I wish I had a copy of it, but I have no clue where to find it.

I think all the old copies are now gone at my church but if I run across one I’ll PM you. I’d be happy to send it to you.

The few things that seem different from our current use, which as I said, I understand is from the OCA, this translation has what I’ve heard in the Greek Orthodox and Antiochian here services here, that in the Trisagion we sing “Holy Mighty” and this translation has “Holy Strong”, and where our deacon prays “…Commemorating our most holy, most pure, most blessed and glorious Lady Theotokos and evervirgin Mary, …” this version has “Commemorating our most holy, most pure, most blessed and glorious Lady, the Mother of God and evervirgin Mary…”. There may be some other differences, but I’m just noticing those at a glance.

I’m happy to hear that Fr. Taft likes it. I wonder if he prefers the “Holy Strong” and the English “Mother of God”, which I don’t like.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I think all the old copies are now gone at my church but if I run across one I’ll PM you. I’d be happy to send it to you.

The few things that seem different from our current use, which as I said, I understand is from the OCA, this translation has what I’ve heard in the Greek Orthodox and Antiochian here services here, that in the Trisagion we sing “Holy Mighty” and this translation has “Holy Strong”, and where our deacon prays “…Commemorating our most holy, most pure, most blessed and glorious Lady Theotokos and evervirgin Mary, …” this version has “Commemorating our most holy, most pure, most blessed and glorious Lady, the Mother of God and evervirgin Mary…”. There may be some other differences, but I’m just noticing those at a glance.

I’m happy to hear that Fr. Taft likes it. I wonder if he prefers the “Holy Strong” and the English “Mother of God”, which I don’t like.

If you ever do come across another copy of it, I would be most interested. I’ll even send you a chotki for it!!!

I don’t know what Fr. Taft’s preferences are as far as Theotokos vs. Mother of God, or Holy Strong vs. Holy Mighty. I do know that a strong case can be made for translating Theotokos to Mother of God. To my knowledge only the Greek speaking Churches maintain “Theotokos” as a proper name for Mary. The Slavic Churches have all translated Theotokos into the corresponding Slavonic phrase (I don’t know what it is). Likewise the Melkites/Antiochian Orthodox have translated Theotokos into Arabic, and the Romanians have translated it into Romanian. I have no real preference, although I think a strong case could be made for translated Theotokos into Mother of God for the English speaking Churches.

Here is a good article on the Trisagion, which covers the translation “Holy Strong” (in reality it ought to be “Holy [is] God, Holy [Thou that art] Strong, Holy [Thou that art] Immortal…”). Fr. Taft’s mentor claimed that the proper translation would be “Holy is God, Holy and Strong/Mighty, Holy and Immortal…” Make of it what you will. Ultimately all translations falter when compared to the original, but then again, ultimately all language falters when dealing with the infinite Mystery of God. We are nothing but babbling babies in the arms of our Abba.

One of the things I like about the Fordham translation is one particular way of saying “now and ever and unto the ages of ages.” Of course, translations of this phrase abound. The Ruthenians have, “now and ever and forever”; the Ukrainians have, “now and forever and ever”; the Melkites have, “now and always and forever and ever” (although plenty of Melkites use “ages of ages”); and the Orthodox translations vary widely as well, but usually end with “ages of ages.” One of my favorite translations of this phrase is done by the Coptic Orthodox, “now and forever and unto the endless age.” But at the Great Entrance the Fordham translation has this wonderful phrase, “May the Lord our God remember us all in His heavenly Kingdom, now and forever and unto all eternity” or something like that.

 

[5Loaves]

If you ever do come across another copy of it, I would be most interested. I’ll even send you a chotki for it!!!

If mine didn’t have sentimental value I’d sent it to you. But I will keep my eyes open for any that might still be hidden among the cobwebs!

I don’t know what Fr. Taft’s preferences are as far as Theotokos vs. Mother of God, or Holy Strong vs. Holy Mighty. I do know that a strong case can be made for translating Theotokos to Mother of God. To my knowledge only the Greek speaking Churches maintain “Theotokos” as a proper name for Mary. The Slavic Churches have all translated Theotokos into the corresponding Slavonic phrase (I don’t know what it is)…

I guess you mean in a Liturgy in Church Slavonic. In the English version we retain Theotokos, it’s what is in the OCA translation, at least the one we’re using and that they’re using in the Russian Orthodox churches I go to.

One of the things I like about the Fordham translation is one particular way of saying “now and ever and unto the ages of ages.” Of course, translations of this phrase abound. The Ruthenians have, “now and ever and forever”; the Ukrainians have, “now and forever and ever”; the Melkites have, “now and always and forever and ever” (although plenty of Melkites use “ages of ages”); and the Orthodox translations vary widely as well, but usually end with “ages of ages.” One of my favorite translations of this phrase is done by the Coptic Orthodox, “now and forever and unto the endless age.” But** at the Great Entrance** the Fordham translation has this wonderful phrase, “May the Lord our God remember us all in His heavenly Kingdom, now and forever and unto all eternity” or something like that.

“May the Lord God remember in His kingdom you and all true-believing Christians, always, now and for ever and through all eternity.” (We use “you and all Orthodox Christians, always, now and ever and unto the ages of ages.”)

Now you’ve found more differences I did say I was just glancing over it. This Fordham uses “now and always and for ever and ever.” We use “now and ever and unto the ages of ages.” I believe the clergy in my parish use service books from St. Tikhon’s Seminary Press. I don’t bring it to DL but I have The Order of the Divine Liturgy according to St. John Chrysostom, “with appendices copyright 2008 STSP Third edition, expanded and corrected… intended for use by the clergy of the Orthodox Church in America… based on the 1967 English translations…” using “…Lady Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary”.

If I get ambitious one day I could scan the Fordham into pdf and send that to you. I have some days of unemployment coming up and that would be possible. Not very attractive but you’d have the text. With the appendix it’s 84 little pages, 4.5"X6".

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

If mine didn’t have sentimental value I’d sent it to you. But I will keep my eyes open for any that might still be hidden among the cobwebs!

I guess you mean in a Liturgy in Church Slavonic. In the English version we retain Theotokos, it’s what is in the OCA translation, at least the one we’re using and that they’re using in the Russian Orthodox churches I go to.

“May the Lord God remember in His kingdom you and all true-believing Christians, always, now and for ever and through all eternity.” (We use “you and all Orthodox Christians, always, now and ever and unto the ages of ages.”)

Now you’ve found more differences I did say I was just glancing over it. This Fordham uses “now and always and for ever and ever.” We use “now and ever and unto the ages of ages.” I believe the clergy in my parish use service books from St. Tikhon’s Seminary Press. I don’t bring it to DL but I have The Order of the Divine Liturgy according to St. John Chrysostom, “with appendices copyright 2008 STSP Third edition, expanded and corrected… intended for use by the clergy of the Orthodox Church in America… based on the 1967 English translations…” using “…Lady Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary”.

If I get ambitious one day I could scan the Fordham into pdf and send that to you. I have some days of unemployment coming up and that would be possible. Not very attractive but you’d have the text. With the appendix it’s 84 little pages, 4.5"X6".

I’d be open to a PDF file of the Fordham translation. I could always print it off. What I’ve read of it, it is my favorite translation. It is dignified and yet in contemporary English. Obviously I would make a few changes as well. I prefer the term “Orthodox Christians” over “true-believing Christians” or “Christians of the true Faith” as the Ruthenians have it. I never can decide if I prefer “unto ages of ages” or “now and always and forever and ever.” Both have their strengths and weaknesses. Again, they are translations and therefore faulter.