Leaving the episocal church-advice?

[jaimeleglise]

Hi and welcome. I feel that the Holy Spirit is working in your life.You raise some excellent questions. I admire your dedication to the dogma of Transubstantiation. The Eucharist in the Catholic Church is the Real Presence of Jesus, His Body,Blood, Soul and Divinity as stated
at the Last Supper. We have Apostolic Succession, an unbroken line of priests ordained by Jesus, then the apostles, their successors, etc. For me, this is very meaningful.

The Perpetual Virginity means that Mary as a young lady had taken a vow to never marry in the ordinary sense and to dedicate herself fully to the service of God. In those times, some Israelites did that. She remained a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus. This is a special dignity and honor that she has. Joseph was her guardian and protector.

The Immaculate Conception is a dogma the Church has held for centuries. It means that Mary was conceived in the womb of St. Anne free of any stain of original sin. She also never sinned during her entire life although she had free will. She was special in that way. How could Jesus, God Himself have come any other way? It would not be right that his Mother would be sinful. Pope Pius declared it infallibly in 1854 and in 1858 Mary appeared to Saint Bernadette and said to her, " I am The Immaculate Conception".
This was a special gift given to Mary by God based on the merits Jesus would gain for us on the cross.

Papal Infallibility is when the Pope in a special meeting with the bishops declares a dogma infallibly through the gift of the Holy Spirit. As far as I know, this has only happened twice in history,however the Holy Spirit does protect the Church from changing doctrines and teaching heresy. A doctrine can be expounded on, explained further, but never changed because they are God’s laws, not men’s laws.

For a much fuller understanding, please read the tracts on this website. They are excellent. A good priest and RCIA teacher can explain these, also. The Catholic Encyclopedia, The Catetechism of the Catholic Church and the Youcat (excellent) are good resources. I like the Youcat, it is very straightforward. The tracts on this website are
excellent.
Shop around and find a parish where the liturgy speaks to your heart. Find a parish where the Mass has the reverence and solemnity that you seek, whether it be Extraordinary form (traditional Latin Mass), Ordinary Form (most common, with or without hymns), Eastern Rite, or if you ever move, the Ordinariate is very beautiful and reverent.
You may attend RCIA with no obligation at a local parish.
Also, the Church Fathers write and explain these dogmas in great detail.
Best wishes, may God bless you abundantly.

 

[DeusExMachina]

I sincerely hope that the “ethnic” nature of many orthodox parishes isn’t your sole reason for disregarding the faith.

No, and I probably should have added this, but Theosis and the unique view of hell also dont make sense to me

 

[johnnyc176]

It’s a tough decision, because it’s on a few levels.

Which denomination’s theology seems best to me?

Which services am I most comfortable with - or rather, call me to conversion?

Which local church do I like best? referring to the pastor, setting, and congregation.

You can’t necessarily judge a whole denomination based on one specific neighboring church, which might not be representative of the whole.

You seem to be saying the decision should be based on feelings? Shouldn’t Truth be the sole determining factor?

 

[TK421]

You wouldnt be referring to the “you are the rock on which I build my church” excerpt, by any chance?

It’s even more than the verse in Sacred Scripture (although the Catholic interpretation is the most logical imo, and obviously I now believe it), because with just Sacred Scripture itself, it is still a free for all of different interpretations, biases, and agendas. You can’t ultimately mathematically prove that Christ made Peter the first Pope. You can’t even prove through scripture that Christ rose from the dead. Maybe it was poetic language used to describe how we can bounce back from the worst times (this is one of the interpretations within Protestantism, btw).

It’s the wider idea of “If Christianity is true, then either A) We’re left to fend for ourselves, or B) Christ gave us something tangible”.

You might have a hard time conceiving Papal infallibility, but if so, then think for a moment how the Church is supposed to be the Church without Papal infallibility. Where is the final voice then? In that case, the Church might cosmetically have a hierarchical & orderly structure, but it is essentially in the same situations as the protestants, because there is no authoritative determiner of what is or isn’t grave error.

 

[johnnyc176]

So, naturally I have begun searching elsewhere for spiritual nourishment. I initially looked at Lutheranism, only to remember that they espouse the doctrines I disagreed with just as strongly. I investigated Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, but was discouraged by the overly ‘ethnic’ character that many potential converts have encountered. So, it seems, the last logical option for me is Roman Catholicism. However, there are still certain beliefs that I need to wrap my head around, such as Perpetual Virginity, Papal Infallibility, and the Immaculate conception. Could anyone help me understand what is really meant by these beliefs, and their scriptural and/or apostolic basis?

Thanks,

Your brother in Christ,
DeusExMachina

If you have come to believe that the Catholic Church is the One True Church founded by Jesus Christ then your next step is RCIA which will help ‘wrap your head around’ the various doctrines that you don’t understand. That is what RCIA is for and why the Church requires it. You may even enter the Catholic Church not understanding them but you must give assent to them. Attending Mass and seeking spiritual communion will also go a long way to ‘wrapping your head around’ the Catholic Faith.

As far as discussing them on the forum you should start individual threads in the appropriate forum for each doctrine you want to discuss.

 

[DeusExMachina]

If you have come to believe that the Catholic Church is the One True Church founded by Jesus Christ then your next step is RCIA which will help ‘wrap your head around’ the various doctrines that you don’t understand. That is what RCIA is for and why the Church requires it. You may even enter the Catholic Church not understanding them but you must give assent to them. Attending Mass and seeking spiritual communion will also go a long way to ‘wrapping your head around’ the Catholic Faith.

As far as discussing them on the forum you should start individual threads in the appropriate forum for each doctrine you want to discuss.

My dear mother was raised in a working-class catholic family, but when she met my dad she converted and became episcopalian. I have broached this topic before with her and suffice it to say she would NEVER allow me to join RCIA

 

[DeusExMachina]

Hi and welcome. I feel that the Holy Spirit is working in your life.You raise some excellent questions. I admire your dedication to the dogma of Transubstantiation. The Eucharist in the Catholic Church is the Real Presence of Jesus, His Body,Blood, Soul and Divinity as stated
at the Last Supper. We have Apostolic Succession, an unbroken line of priests ordained by Jesus, then the apostles, their successors, etc. For me, this is very meaningful.

The Perpetual Virginity means that Mary as a young lady had taken a vow to never marry in the ordinary sense and to dedicate herself fully to the service of God. In those times, some Israelites did that. She remained a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus. This is a special dignity and honor that she has. Joseph was her guardian and protector.

The Immaculate Conception is a dogma the Church has held for centuries. It means that Mary was conceived in the womb of St. Anne free of any stain of original sin. She also never sinned during her entire life although she had free will. She was special in that way. How could Jesus, God Himself have come any other way? It would not be right that his Mother would be sinful. Pope Pius declared it infallibly in 1854 and in 1858 Mary appeared to Saint Bernadette and said to her, " I am The Immaculate Conception".
This was a special gift given to Mary by God based on the merits Jesus would gain for us on the cross.

Papal Infallibility is when the Pope in a special meeting with the bishops declares a dogma infallibly through the gift of the Holy Spirit. As far as I know, this has only happened twice in history,however the Holy Spirit does protect the Church from changing doctrines and teaching heresy. A doctrine can be expounded on, explained further, but never changed because they are God’s laws, not men’s laws.

For a much fuller understanding, please read the tracts on this website. They are excellent. A good priest and RCIA teacher can explain these, also. The Catholic Encyclopedia, The Catetechism of the Catholic Church and the Youcat (excellent) are good resources. I like the Youcat, it is very straightforward. The tracts on this website are
excellent.
Shop around and find a parish where the liturgy speaks to your heart. Find a parish where the Mass has the reverence and solemnity that you seek, whether it be Extraordinary form (traditional Latin Mass), Ordinary Form (most common, with or without hymns), Eastern Rite, or if you ever move, the Ordinariate is very beautiful and reverent.
You may attend RCIA with no obligation at a local parish.
Also, the Church Fathers write and explain these dogmas in great detail.
Best wishes, may God bless you abundantly.

Quick question: do you happen to know if any of the various Greek Catholic churches perform services in english?

 

[commenter]

You seem to be saying the decision should be based on feelings? Shouldn’t Truth be the sole determining factor?

I am sensitive to the feelings of the individual - they are important - but yes, Truth should be the deciding factor. In my earlier post 2 sentences that express that:

“You can’t necessarily judge a whole denomination based on one specific neighboring church, which might not be representative of the whole”;

(In other words, just because I enjoy the services at church X - as valuable as that is - that should not determine which which denomination has the fullness of the truth)

and:

“C. S. Lewis gives a little good advice in Mere Christianity, which is worth reading for many reasons anyway”.

I can’t quote Lewis from memory, like some people on this thread, but Lewis, an Anglican, is writing to welcome non Christians into the Church, which is like a hotel, with a great hall. Waiting in the hall for awhile is fine (in other words, discerning which denomination). But it is only in the rooms themselves (i. e. this or that denomination) you will find warmth and permanence. He makes the point that your choice of room should be based on Truth.

Lewis rejoiced whenever someone found the right room, even if it was a different one from the one Lewis was in. I live in a specific room also, but I encourage you to seek out where you find the fullness of truth, and I will rejoice as you can follow your path. I do NOT think all rooms have the fullness of Truth. I do encourage you to pray about your discernment. God can lead you better than forums!

 

[jlhargus]

As the title suggests, I am very close to leaving the anglican communion. So, it seems, the last logical option for me is Roman Catholicism. However, there are still certain beliefs that I need to wrap my head around, such as Perpetual Virginity, Papal Infallibility, and the Immaculate conception. Could anyone help me understand what is really meant by these beliefs, and their scriptural and/or apostolic basis? Thanks,Your brother in Christ, DeusExMachina

Perpetual Virgin. [Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name Immanuel]

MT 1:23 Behold a virgin shall be with child and shall bring forth a son and they shall call his name Emmanuel which being interpreted is God with us

[Ezek 44:1 Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. 2 **The LORD said to me, This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it.]

The Lord God has entered through Mary, the gate, no one is to enter thru that gate. Just as no one was to enter into the old Testament Ark of the Covenant. Because it was HOLY, where the presents of God met with His people. No one is to enter Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant. Because the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered thru her. The Fathers called Mary the gate of heaven and the ark of the covenant.

[Lk1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel How shall this be seeing I know not a man?]
Mary was espoused to Joseph, before the annunciation, it would be natural to expect to conceive and bare children especially for a Jewish woman. The Church has always seen this as Mary having a vow of virginity. Otherwise why would she ask the angel, “How shall this be seeing I know not Man”. Numbers 30 tells us Jewish women did at times make vows.

[Nbrs30:6 And if she had at all an husband when she vowed or uttered ought out of her lips wherewith she bound her soul 7 And her husband heard it and held his peace at her in the day that he heard it then her vows shall stand and her bonds wherewith she bound her soul shall stand 8 But if her husband disallowed her on the day that he heard it then he shall make her vow which she vowed, and that which she uttered with her lips wherewith she bound her soul of none effect: and the LORD shall forgive her]

[Hb9:3 And **after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; 4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;]

The OT ark contained types of what was to be fulfilled in Christ. Mary the new ark contained in her womb the real manna Christ the bread of life, Aaron’s rod a type of the high priest. Mary contained in her womb the ever living High Priest Christ. Mary contained in her womb the very living Word of God not the word in stone.

P.S. DeusExMachina, I will be in Franklin Tn for Thanksgiving. Leaving Tuesday returning Saturday or Sunday.

 

[jlhargus]

Assuption of Mary. [1Tm2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the **man Christ Jesus;]

[Rv12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a **woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:]

[1Tm2:5& Rv12:1, implies there are at least **two Human Beings bodily in heaven.] A human being is both body and soul (spirit). A body alone is a corps not a human being. A spirit or soul alone is a disembodied spirit and isn’t a human being.

[1Tm3:15 reveals a **man=human being body and soul Christ whom we know ascended body and soul into heaven. Rv12:1 reveals a woman=human being which would be body and soul. All other scriptures mention only spirits or souls of human beings in heaven.

The following scriptures tell us of the souls (spirits) of human beings in heaven.
[Rv6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the **souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:]

[Hb12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the **spirits of just men made perfect,]

Mary was assumed into heaven, she didn’t ascend, only Christ ascended of his own power into heaven. Mary being assumed, body and soul, by our Lord, into heaven is not unique. Scripture tells us Enoch and Elijah were taken bodily from the earth. Mary’s assumption is not explicit, but is implicit in scripture, just as the Trinity is implicit and not explicit.

[Rv11:19 And **the temple of God was opened in heaven and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament and there were lightnings and voices and thunderings and an earthquake and great hail. [Rv12:1 **And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.]

John first sees, in heaven, the ark then he describes it, as a woman clothed with the sun, moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars.]

Mary’s glorified body is described from head to feet, in heaven. We see, when the temple was opened in heaven, the woman, the Ark of the New Covenant, clothed with the sun, moon under her feet and a crown on her head. The Temple of God is the Church in heaven which is opened and John saw the Ark of the Covenant. After the lightings, voices, thunder, earthquake and hail. John saw a great wonder a woman. the woman of Gn3:15, Rev12:1 the one Christ always addresses as woman, Mary.
According to scripture Elijah and Enoch were taken up bodily.

[2Kgs2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and **Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.]

[Hb11:5 **By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.]

 

[DeusExMachina]

Assuption of Mary. [1Tm2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the **man

Christ Jesus;]

[Rv12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a **woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:]

[1Tm2:5& Rv12:1, implies there are at least **two Human Beings bodily in heaven.] A human being is both body and soul (spirit). A body alone is a corps not a human being. A spirit or soul alone is a disembodied spirit and isn’t a human being.

[1Tm3:15 reveals a **man=human being body and soul Christ whom we know ascended body and soul into heaven. Rv12:1 reveals a woman=human being which would be body and soul. All other scriptures mention only spirits or souls of human beings in heaven.

The following scriptures tell us of the souls (spirits) of human beings in heaven.
[Rv6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the **souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:]

[Hb12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the **spirits of just men made perfect,]

Mary was assumed into heaven, she didn’t ascend, only Christ ascended of his own power into heaven. Mary being assumed, body and soul, by our Lord, into heaven is not unique. Scripture tells us Enoch and Elijah were taken bodily from the earth. Mary’s assumption is not explicit, but is implicit in scripture, just as the Trinity is implicit and not explicit.

[Rv11:19 And **the temple of God was opened in heaven and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament and there were lightnings and voices and thunderings and an earthquake and great hail. [Rv12:1 **And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.]

John first sees, in heaven, the ark then he describes it, as a woman clothed with the sun, moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars.]

Mary’s glorified body is described from head to feet, in heaven. We see, when the temple was opened in heaven, the woman, the Ark of the New Covenant, clothed with the sun, moon under her feet and a crown on her head. The Temple of God is the Church in heaven which is opened and John saw the Ark of the Covenant. After the lightings, voices, thunder, earthquake and hail. John saw a great wonder a woman. the woman of Gn3:15, Rev12:1 the one Christ always addresses as woman, Mary.
According to scripture Elijah and Enoch were taken up bodily.

[2Kgs2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and **Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.]

[Hb11:5 **By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.]

Looks like I need to crack open revelation! I had never read those passages before. Many thanks

 

[Peter_J]

No, and I probably should have added this, but Theosis and the unique view of hell also dont make sense to me

That’s also a reason to think twice about Roman Catholicism.

 

[DeusExMachina]

That’s also a reason to think twice about Roman Catholicism.

I thought theosis was only an orthodox concept

 

[pablope]

As t

So, it seems, the last logical option for me is Roman Catholicism. However, there are still certain beliefs that I need to wrap my head around, such as Perpetual Virginity, Papal Infallibility, and the Immaculate conception. Could anyone help me understand what is really meant by these beliefs, and their scriptural and/or apostolic basis?

Thanks,

Your brother in Christ,
DeusExMachina

For the Marian Dogmas, I would suggest the following book by a convert name Scott Hahn:

barnesandnoble.com/w/hail-holy-queen-scott-hahn/1102815150

Or an audio resource from Dr. Hahn:

scotthahn.com/mary.html

 

[jaimeleglise]

Quick question: do you happen to know if any of the various Greek Catholic churches perform services in english?

I imagine they do. Many Greek Orthodox parishes use English.