Legally divorced standing by wedding vows

[Michael_Saint]

I believe you are sending a great mesage to your children (and society) about the permanence of marriage. .

And a great message to the Church!

 

[Michael_Saint]

Well, from my personal perspective, I agree with you 100%.

Allow me to ask you this: Does it work the other way too? Is it possible that the tribunal might refuse to issue a decree of nullity for a marriage that was, in fact, invalid?

These days, they are geared so much towards erring on the opposite extreme that I would say this probably does not happen.

 

[JRKH]

You have mine!

Actually, the comment about “loopholes” does not surprise me. I have plans on writing an article about the topic of annulments and the number granted today, and I am essentially going to argue that annulments have often in our Church’s history been used as a “loophole” (for instance, the marriages of the filles-du-roi in New France), and that God may have even providentially arranged it that way. I know that sounds odd, but I can’t do it justice here, and it will probably be years before I get around to writing it (I have a pile of other things on my list of topics before I can get to this one).

If you want some more reassurance, you have Scott Hahn’s. I will reprint what I wrote years ago on this forum when annulments were being debated. This is from his “Exodus” CD series, Tape #7 I believe:

Dr. Hahn begins by saying “Church lawyers brag they can annul every marriage”, based on “27 different grounds of psychological disturbances”. He concludes that “most annulments” are not true annulments. His suggestion? Even though he thinks seeking an annulment today is a dangerous thing because of the above, he says: “Don’t not seek an annulment, but don’t purjure yourself or exaggerate, tell the whole truth. If you think the decision was made because it was the easy road, the shortcut, you will stand before God and He will show you your decision, and if there is any falsification or hedging and if you know lawyers played fast and loose with Church law, you are an adulterer”. Therefore he concludes, “if you do seek an annulment, do it with caution”, for “Church courts are not infallible”, and in the end, if you are guilty of what is described above, your ignorance is “vincible”.

I don’t want to re-ignite the debate on annulments (I already debated that on this forum, and I believe the thread was closed and we are no longer allowed to debate it anyway). But I will give you my full support for your decision. And I think there are many people like you who know their marriages were truly valid, and have decided to do likewise. And I also think it is sad that people feel it is tragic you will not seek an annulment, as though your life cannot be as meaningful or fulfilling if you remain single.

I highlighted the above as crucial items that are often ignored or overlooked in discussions about annulments.
If a person seeks an annulment and answers the questions with complete and prayerful honesty, they should have no fear that the decision of the tribunal is incorrect. They can stand before God, with a clear conscience on the matter knowing that there was not deceit in their heart.
If some members of some tribunals, “played fast and loose with Church law”, in judging annulment cases, then that will be a matter between God and them at their particular judgement.
For those, like myself, who have asked for and received annulments, we have sought them in good faith and received them in the same manner. It is not for others, not aquanted with any one particular case to judge.

As for those who choose not seek an annulment and remain single, this too is a decision reached in Good faith and no one should secnod guess that decision.

Peace
James

 

[ComputerGeek25]

I highlighted the above as crucial items that are often ignored or overlooked in discussions about annulments.
If a person seeks an annulment and answers the questions with complete and prayerful honesty, they should have no fear that the decision of the tribunal is incorrect. They can stand before God, with a clear conscience on the matter knowing that there was not deceit in their heart.
If some members of some tribunals, “played fast and loose with Church law”, in judging annulment cases, then that will be a matter between God and them at their particular judgement.
For those, like myself, who have asked for and received annulments, we have sought them in good faith and received them in the same manner. It is not for others, not aquanted with any one particular case to judge.

As for those who choose not seek an annulment and remain single, this too is a decision reached in Good faith and no one should secnod guess that decision.

Peace
James

Good rebuttal.

I think the priests and/or tribunal members who encourge people to get/grant annulments and play fast and loose would be the ones at fault here.

 

[Michael_Saint]

Good rebuttal.

I think the priests and/or tribunal members who encourge people to get/grant annulments and play fast and loose would be the ones at fault here.

For the most part agreed, but I think even among the one seeking an annulment the “ignorance” (to use the Catholic lingo) can either be “invincible” or “vincible”.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

For the most part agreed, but I think even among the one seeking an annulment the “ignorance” (to use the Catholic lingo) can either be “invincible” or “vincible”.

Yep. Agreed here.

 

[yellowantphil]

I ran into her tonight after Mass and she congratulated me on my divorce and asked me to meet with her before I leave town.

Ugh – that’s horrible. To me, congratulating someone on a divorce is like congratulating them on getting a leg amputated. Maybe it’s necessary or unavoidable in some situations, but it’s never something to celebrate.

God bless you for being faithful to your vows. I wish there were more people like you, who understood what it means to make a lifelong commitment. Of my friends who have been married, about half of them were divorced just a few years later. I’m glad to know that there are still people in the world who don’t try to rescind their vows at the first sign of trouble.

The casual attitude of some people toward divorce reminds me of Matthew 24:12-13:
New American Bible:

Because of the increase of evildoing, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

 

[JRKH]

For the most part agreed, but I think even among the one seeking an annulment the “ignorance” (to use the Catholic lingo) can either be “invincible” or “vincible”.

Possibly but since we do rely a great deal on the advise of those who are supposedly more knowledgable in this area AND we are not privy to the deliberations of the Tribunal(s) it can be rather hard to “vince” our ignorance. I’m sure there are many grey areas.

Even if we assume that some of the trubunals “play fast and loose”, we cannot know for sure which ones, or which cases. As Good faithful catholics who believe in and Trust God’s Church we can do little other than to be honest, and trust that others are equally honest.

I hesitated for many years to get an annulment because I believed I could not have one granted. I believed that my grounds would be found insufficient. Yet when I finally did try, answering all of the questions as honestly and as fully as I could, my annulment was granted.
Of course my annulment becomes one of thousands granted that year. Assuming a “too lax” system, perhaps 80% of those whould not have been granted. But who is to say whether my particular case falls in the 80% or the 20%.
That is why I say that, if one wishes to apply for an annulment - be honest and upfront. Answer the questions carefull, truthfully and prayerfully. Then turn the paperwork in with a prayer that God’s will be done and a commitment to accept the decision of the tribunal.

Peace
James

 

[mommabear]

Georgia peach,
Im separated/ not yet divorced but sure seems like my husbands wants to head in that direction. It makes me upset to hear people say that I should _ should it continue to divorce- go for annulment so that my husband would not be in " sin" in a marriage outside of the church. I believe in my heart and soul that there are no valid reasons that our marriage would be found to be invalid. The United States tribunals have handed out annulments that IF they are sent to the Roman Rota are 90 some percent of the time found instead to be VALID SACRAMENTAL marriages. which to me means that if a tribunal here in the United States were to tell my husband and I that we are free to go out and enter into a new marriage that the possiblity is there that this is not true. that we are really in a permanent state of adultery.
From the begining of our church the church leaders preached that marriage is a life long, unbreakable commitment.
I will , regardless of what my husband chooses to do, remain faithful to my vows.
Our society, even our church , does not encourage, or preach this and I believe that this is a big part of the problem . We re not faithfull. not in our faith, not in our marriages.
our kids need to see this. faithfullness to our vocation that we entered into freely and without reserve.
there is a ministry- a Catholic apostalate called St Mary of Cana, they are coming out in a few weeks with a booklet, a study guide of sorts to encourage the divorced or separated Catholic who has made the commitment to remain faithful to their vows of marriage.
It is called " The gift of self". For me, it has brought me closer to my Lord and i am more and more sure that this is the right thing that God wants.
I have come to believe that to be faithful to God is to be faithful to our vows. It shows my children that I am faithful to my lord.

I choose this not because my husband is so great but because i feel that I made a promise to our Lord too on the day I married. and I dont intend to break that promise.
if my husband makes the choice to commit sin by divorcing me, I cannot prevent it. but I will defend the validity of our marriage in the tribunals, and will request that it be reviewed at the Roman tribunal as a court of second instance.
Our church needs to protect the sacredness, the unbreakableness, the dignity of our marriages more than ever as it is so much under attack in our society, and even in the church by people who encourage us, encourage dissolutioned spouses to “get a divorce’, maybe you can get ( a do-over) and get an easy annulment”.
but in the scriptures no where do they justify divorce.
its like abortion, it kills, abortion kills a baby, a life: divorce wounds our children, kills thier family.
I pray Pope Benedict does more to help our wounded families and defend holy marriage.

 

[rpp]

First, me say I too, like several on this thread, have good friend who is divorced but seeking to stand behind her marriage vows.

Second, I have been divorced twice and both of my marriages have been declared to be null. It is my belief that both marriages, which occurred before my conversion from atheism to the Catholic Church, were indeed invalid.

With that in mind, I am certain many if not all of us have heard many complaints about the huge number of annulments granted in recent years compared to far fewer number in generations past. I would speculate that many of these annulments were indeed the correct decision. Others I am not so sure about. I think one of the reasons for such a high number is huge number of divorces. Yet I think there is another more worrisome reason.

I think that the number of annulments improperly granted is not insignificant. But more than that, the decision was reached not by an unintentional error on the part of the tribunals but rather their misguided desire to “show mercy” to petitioners. When they knowingly grant an annulment improperly, they commit a very grave sin. The person who petitioned for an annulment, provided they were completely truthful and forthcoming, cannot be held at fault as their annulment is a declaration by the Church. However, those on the tribunal who simply rubber-stamp a divorce will have to stand before God, Who will probably not be too pleased with them flaunting His Law, even in the name of “mercy”.

If a person was in a marriage that fell apart and they believed their marriage to be valid in the Sight of God, I would encourage them to be very careful with regard to petitioning for a declaration of nullity “just in case”. To do so may create an occasion of grave sin for those on the tribunal who, out of misguided “compassion” ignore Church teaching and Law and knowingly grant an improper annulment.

 

[JRKH]

First, me say I too, like several on this thread, have good friend who is divorced but seeking to stand behind her marriage vows.

Second, I have been divorced twice and both of my marriages have been declared to be null. It is my belief that both marriages, which occurred before my conversion from atheism to the Catholic Church, were indeed invalid.

With that in mind, I am certain many if not all of us have heard many complaints about the huge number of annulments granted in recent years compared to far fewer number in generations past. I would speculate that many of these annulments were indeed the correct decision. Others I am not so sure about. I think one of the reasons for such a high number is huge number of divorces. Yet I think there is another more worrisome reason.

I think that the number of annulments improperly granted is not insignificant. But more than that, the decision was reached not by an unintentional error on the part of the tribunals but rather their misguided desire to “show mercy” to petitioners. When they knowingly grant an annulment improperly, they commit a very grave sin. The person who petitioned for an annulment, provided they were completely truthful and forthcoming, cannot be held at fault as their annulment is a declaration by the Church. However, those on the tribunal who simply rubber-stamp a divorce will have to stand before God, Who will probably not be too pleased with them flaunting His Law, even in the name of “mercy”.

If a person was in a marriage that fell apart and they believed their marriage to be valid in the Sight of God, I would encourage them to be very careful with regard to petitioning for a declaration of nullity “just in case”. To do so may create an occasion of grave sin for those on the tribunal who, out of misguided “compassion” ignore Church teaching and Law and knowingly grant an improper annulment.

Nicely Put.

Although I would disagree to an extent with the last part.

Those who petition “just in case” are not “creating” an occasion for grave sin. They are seeking a ruling from the Church. As long as they are honest in their answers, they are not entrapping or forcing or encouraging any tribunal member to sin.

Peace
James

 

[Ailina]

First, me say I too, like several on this thread, have good friend who is divorced but seeking to stand behind her marriage vows.

Second, I have been divorced twice and both of my marriages have been declared to be null. It is my belief that both marriages, which occurred before my conversion from atheism to the Catholic Church, were indeed invalid.

With that in mind, I am certain many if not all of us have heard many complaints about the huge number of annulments granted in recent years compared to far fewer number in generations past. I would speculate that many of these annulments were indeed the correct decision. Others I am not so sure about. I think one of the reasons for such a high number is huge number of divorces. Yet I think there is another more worrisome reason.

I think that the number of annulments improperly granted is not insignificant. But more than that, the decision was reached not by an unintentional error on the part of the tribunals but rather their misguided desire to “show mercy” to petitioners. When they knowingly grant an annulment improperly, they commit a very grave sin. The person who petitioned for an annulment, provided they were completely truthful and forthcoming, cannot be held at fault as their annulment is a declaration by the Church. However, those on the tribunal who simply rubber-stamp a divorce will have to stand before God, Who will probably not be too pleased with them flaunting His Law, even in the name of “mercy”.

If a person was in a marriage that fell apart and they believed their marriage to be valid in the Sight of God, I would encourage them to be very careful with regard to petitioning for a declaration of nullity “just in case”. To do so may create an occasion of grave sin for those on the tribunal who, out of misguided “compassion” ignore Church teaching and Law and knowingly grant an improper annulment.

I’m not sure I agree with that last statement. The tribunal that I was in contact with are very much sticklers regarding canon law. They are compassionate, but they also make sure to cross all the "t"s and dot all the "i"s. They take their role seriously and are experts in canon law, whereas the rest of us lay people may not be.

It takes two to make a sacramental marriage. If one of the two has the thought “marriage is not forever and I’ll leave if I want to and do what I want to”, as my ex-spouse told me after my marriage failed, then that marriage is likely to fail, and is not valid. The other spouse who truly believed the vows they took is a victim of fraud in that case.

 

[dashso40]

Good for you Georgiapeach!..keep standing by your beliefs and faith…good for you

 

[The_Bucket]

It takes two to make a sacramental marriage. If one of the two has the thought “marriage is not forever and I’ll leave if I want to and do what I want to”, as my ex-spouse told me after my marriage failed, then that marriage is likely to fail, and is not valid. The other spouse who truly believed the vows they took is a victim of fraud in that case.

There are so many, many people out there in that very position. I’d say in the past there were not enough annulments to be quite honest. I believe that people understood that marriage is forever in the past more than they do today, but I also believe that just as many people did not understand what a marriage entails besides a permanent living situation in the past as they do today.

Is there a strong possibility that getting an annulment is “too easy” here in the US? Yeah I guess. But considering that there are a multitude of Catholics-in-name that get divorced and remarried without even thinking of annulments, you have to consider that those that do petition for a declaration of nullity have at least some concern for doctrine and some inkling that their marriages were indeed invalid. It’s sad to say, but like so many other things in life, a great number of people do not understand what kind of commitment they are making when they get married and honestly, I think that’s always been the case. It’s not a matter of the Church needing to educate better or society changing or any of that. It’s that marriage is a very deep commitment on so many levels and comprehending it is tough. It seems easy, sure, stay together until death, love, honor and protect forever. But that’s a tough mission and many people don’t understand its gravity. I’m glad the Lord has blessed me in the three years I’ve been married, despite those three years carrying a lifetime worth of joys, sorrows, tribulations and triumphs. I hope he continues to bless my marriage forever.

 

[gretahope]

Dear Georgia Peach,

I sympathize and commend you on your stand. I can even identify in many ways. I have recently been diagnosed with PTSD and through my assessment have come to believe that my ‘husband’ (though legally divorced) is also a victim of it. It is becoming more and more apparent through my counseling that he and i kept triggering our past wounds and possibly creating new pathways to them by our fighting. Up until and even after the legal divorce we said we loved each other but had no answers to our problems due to lots of complications, too many to list here but suffice it to say, bad counseling, lack of vulnerability, lack of insight, and stepchildren. We are both Catholic converts only recently received into the church in 2008. Once i began to work with a new counselor who looked in a different direction than the past ones - things began to become very clear. My heart was so grieved at the things we had said and done. Textbook PTSD.
He had always said he would love me and be there for me and so I approached my husband regarding our vows and a reconciliation or an annulment. He waffled with me about it for a couple of months giving me mixed messages and verbally bashing God and the Church until he finally admitted he had started an online relationship to assuage his loneliness and hurt and could not trust me enough to give me another chance at this time. He actually went this week to meet his friend in person after giving me an ultimatum 2 weeks ago that i ‘cease and desist’ all contact with him so that he could move on with his new woman.
I wish i had the opportunity to show him the things i have discovered about how the PTSD affected our relationship but he is not open to it. He met with our deacon regarding our marriage and informed the deacon about his new relationship before i ever knew about it. He also stated he doesn’t care about annulments but since i cannot move on without one he is willing to help me if i choose it - meaning he wont’ fight it and he will sign anything he needs to but he will not pursue one cause he doesn’t see the need for it. He has quit going to Church since our divorce and says he doesnt’ understand why God did not keep us together and prays daily for answers. I have tried to explain to him about free will and i have cried and prayed and apologized until i am exhausted. i met with our deacon to discuss whether i should stand by my vows or pursue the annulment. The choice was left up to me but since he knew of my husbands behavior he came prepared to give me the paperwork. i have begun it and as other people have posted - it clearly shows you things about yourself and your marriage you may not have thought about. i do not know if it will be granted but i am going to go through with it because it takes two people to reconcile and my husband is not interested in it. I still love him but he has made his choice clear.

If your husband is willing to remain friends with you and is not pursuing other women, maybe you can get him some help with his PTSD and eventually you could reconcile. I applaud you for your decision and i am right there with you about how people nowadays are so ready to chuck their marriage for some other option. This is the hardest thing i have ever went through and i wish to God i had known before the divorce what i know now but for some reason i dont’ understand it didn’t work that way.

The Bible says in I Cor 7:11 for the wife to be reconciled if possible. The Church provides the annulment process for alot of reasons and the soul searching involved is a good thing. But they don’t require you to get an annulment if you wish to stand by your marriage. It is valid in the Church’s eyes until it is proved invalid before a tribunal. No one person can tell you differently.
Seek God and wait on the Lord - Prov 3 5-7

Lady Marie

Wow, this really helps me. Thank you for posting all this!

I have been in marriage for 27 yrs that has always felt “wrong”—I knew I wasn’t ready but know now that PTSD must have played a role in my caving to his wishes to marry before I was ready. Since , the role of “martyr” is one I have played well (abusive backgournd myself), all the while being filled with anxiety and a growing sense of being completely ripped off. (The love of my life married someone else, only later to call me through the years…trying to at least be friends, knowing that we have loved each other from afar for all the years, and God not removing this love has been torture. ) But that it that and done with…but where’s the silver lining? Anyway, I will look into this PTSD thing and see where it takes me…
Also–please don’t beat yourself up:console: As you said, I firmly believe also that it’s all for a reason. You’ve been led in a different direction (however you want to phrase it) than GeorgiaPeach. She may not have PTSD, and is led to do what she’s doing, which is awesome…but don’t think that we all have the same path. God also is interested in our wholeness internally. Someone else may also decide to stand by the vows similarly…but is full of unrest and anxiety…how can that be a testimony. I guess we all need to follow God’s peace the best we know how in the context of our circumstances. So many things can be out of our control…and that’s when we can rest, when we’ve done all we can do… and know that I/we’re :thumbsup:rooting for you.

 

[gretahope]

I don’t see anything wrong with a Catholic support group for Separated/Divorced people. Such a group helped me when my ex-husband left. I now facilitate this support group, and have to say all the participants are hurting and in need of a sympathetic ear to listen to their struggles. I am starting to think that too many people stay far too long in terrible marital situations, and that maybe leaving sooner rather than later would be best for everyone. Some marriages are not made in heaven.

I do agree, to an extent…
One the one hand you look at people staying in unchanging, miserable situations, with no peace and maybe emotional abuse…and you wonder why…
On the other hand we don’t see eternity, and how our decisions affect eternity. It’s just so hard to know ---- I again have to say that the internal peace of God is so utterly important in our lives to foster and move to desperately, at times. Where is the peace, where’s the joy – for eternity? It just may not look the same for all of us. I am not a pro-" PC" person at all, and that statement may sound it…but truly, having struggled for SO long, I am wondering at times if God is saying—look at your situation and use some common sense! Make a change to get some peace…and maybe that means going to Mass daily, or even separating from my spouse for a time. I don’t know. But when health starts to deteriorate b/c of nothing changing (staying a martyr)—the insanity needs to stop.

 

[vsedriver]

two months ago my husband walked out on me and our two children after 22 yrs of marriage. He just didn’t want to be married anymore. I’m a devout Catholic. I have no plans to remarry but it does sadden me to think of being alone in my old age and to face my children being forced to share holidays. forums.catholic-questions.org/images/smilies/frown.gif

 

[materdequint]

Yes there is a group of divorced/separated Catholics that stand behind their marrige vows. Go to marysadvocates.org There is a defendingmarriage yahoo group that is part of this for about 7 yrs. We have monthly conference calls for the past yr on Mondays. I personally was separated for 3 yrs and with the support of this group I actually reconciled with my husband. There are those who have been separated for 20+ yrs. We recently had a book translated from Italian called the GIft of Self. It was written by a woman who started the St. Mary of Cana group in Itally. This is a group of separated/divorced Catholics who renew their wedding vows and draw on the graces of their sacramental marriage to live their sometimes very difficult and suffering lives. We are trying to start up St. Mary of Cana of groups in various dioceses in the US. There are Protestant groups that exist like ours - Covenant Keepers, Rejoice Marriage Ministries, etc.