Liberal Catholic Church USA versus Liberal Catholic Church International

[RevDrNorth]

I recall someone posted that the Roman Catholic Church sees the Liberal Catholic as having valid apostolic succession from Utrecht. Then we looked at an LCCI link that was very theosophical (new agish). Apparently there was some schism. The LCC USA appears to be more “regular” though liberal. Makes interesting reading (Communion on tongue, pre Vatican two style, etc).

ourladyqueenofangels.com/beliefs.html

members.tripod.com/~LiberalCatholic/doctrine.htm

Rev North

 

[Bennie_P]

I recall someone posted that the Roman Catholic Church sees the Liberal Catholic as having valid apostolic succession from Utrecht. Then we looked at an LCCI link that was very theosophical (new agish). Apparently there was some schism. The LCC USA appears to be more “regular” though liberal. Makes interesting reading (Communion on tongue, pre Vatican two style, etc).

ourladyqueenofangels.com/beliefs.html

members.tripod.com/~LiberalCatholic/doctrine.htm

Rev North

This sounds pretty New Age to me

“It is the duty of man to learn to discern the divine light (divine spark?) in himself and others…”…“Inasmuch as the Liberal Catholic Church welcomes to its membership all who are seeking truth, it does not require its members to accept this statement of doctrine, but the statement is to be regarded as embodying the distinctive contribution of the Liberal Catholic Church to Christian thought,”…

Or at least steep in Relativism:shrug:

(All services are in the language of the people). Although Theosophists played a major role in establishing this Church, the Church itself has no connection with the Theosophical Society or with any other philosophical school of thought. Clergy and members are free in such matters. All clergy are self-supporting, receiving no financial remuneration for their work. They are free to marry if they wish.

Theosophist played a minor role in ebstablishing the *Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei *also, even though they had no connection with the Theosophical Society neither.

Both your links are to the same Church, just different web sights.

 

[EnchantedEve]

I recall someone posted that the Roman Catholic Church sees the Liberal Catholic as having valid apostolic succession from Utrecht. Then we looked at an LCCI link that was very theosophical (new agish). Apparently there was some schism. The LCC USA appears to be more “regular” though liberal. Makes interesting reading (Communion on tongue, pre Vatican two style, etc).

ourladyqueenofangels.com/beliefs.html

members.tripod.com/~LiberalCatholic/doctrine.htm

Rev North

Liberal Catholic Church USA is the original church, and is still connected to the original organization in Great Britain. They do not marry women, and do not marry homosexuals. The LCCI ordains women and marries homosexuals, and have distanced themeselves from theosophy more visibly. And contrary to what the LCCI would have you think, neither requires their clergy to hold any specific belief (except for bishops, LCC bishops must profess belief in the Most Holy Trinity).

 

[ConstantineTG]

Wow, thats a pretty open ended faith. Why be in a religion at all? “Come be a part of our church. Believe in whatever you want!”

 

[EnchantedEve]

Wow, thats a pretty open ended faith. Why be in a religion at all? “Come be a part of our church. Believe in whatever you want!”

It is not exactly like that. There are certainly definite teachings (seven sacraments, sacrificing priesthood, etc.) you just do not have to believe in them to be a member in good standing, or you may also disagree as to their nature. The long and the short is that you will not be denied the sacraments if you have disagreements over dogma.

There again, you have a certain point. Some member have come to interpret liberal, instead of freedom of thought, to being “do-whatever-you-want,” and have thus protested the LCC teaching that women cannot be ordained and homosexuals cannot be married. The LCC insists it is a teaching church that, while it permits a great deal of intellectual liberty to its members, simply cannot chuck doctrine out the door because people feel it is outdated. Dissenters are still permitted to receive sacraments, and voice their disagreement, but they will not find their views entertained by the Episcopal Synod.

 

[CDNowak]

They do not marry women, and do not marry homosexuals.

I lol’ed.

 

[EnchantedEve]

I lol’ed.

Aah! I mean ordain! ordain women!

 

[gmcbroom]

I wonder what their numbers are? I’d never heard of them until I came to CAF.

 

[Esdra]

I recall someone posted that the Roman Catholic Church sees the Liberal Catholic as having valid apostolic succession from Utrecht. Then we looked at an LCCI link that was very theosophical (new agish). Apparently there was some schism. The LCC USA appears to be more “regular” though liberal. Makes interesting reading (Communion on tongue, pre Vatican two style, etc).

ourladyqueenofangels.com/beliefs.html

members.tripod.com/~LiberalCatholic/doctrine.htm

Rev North

Hi all,

I also have mentioned this Church - the LCC - in this forum.

There weren’t many posts in it 'though…

It is quite a New Age Church and Theopphistic Church and as far as I know their sacraments and ordinations are not recognized by any other Christian Church.

For further information read this article of wikipedia: here.

The founder is a Theophysist and a former Anglican Priest.

In the article it also says that this Church belonged to the Utrecht Old Catholic Church ones, but in the meantime it is “a sect” and has nothing to do anymore with the Old Catholic Church.

Nevertheless it could be that the orders are valid in the LCC. Because the orders of the Old Catholic Church are also, partly, valid.

Best wishes,
Esdra

 

[EnchantedEve]

Hi all,

I also have mentioned this Church - the LCC - in this forum.

There weren’t many posts in it 'though…

It is quite a New Age Church and Theopphistic Church and as far as I know their sacraments and ordinations are not recognized by any other Christian Church.

For further information read this article of wikipedia: here.

The founder is a Theophysist and a former Anglican Priest.

In the article it also says that this Church belonged to the Utrecht Old Catholic Church ones, but in the meantime it is “a sect” and has nothing to do anymore with the Old Catholic Church.

Nevertheless it could be that the orders are valid in the LCC. Because the orders of the Old Catholic Church are also, partly, valid.

Best wishes,
Esdra

How can orders be partly valid?

 

[EnchantedEve]

Hi all,

I also have mentioned this Church - the LCC - in this forum.

There weren’t many posts in it 'though…

It is quite a New Age Church and Theopphistic Church and as far as I know their sacraments and ordinations are not recognized by any other Christian Church.

For further information read this article of wikipedia: here.

The founder is a Theophysist and a former Anglican Priest.

In the article it also says that this Church belonged to the Utrecht Old Catholic Church ones, but in the meantime it is “a sect” and has nothing to do anymore with the Old Catholic Church.

Nevertheless it could be that the orders are valid in the LCC. Because the orders of the Old Catholic Church are also, partly, valid.

Best wishes,
Esdra

I have not been able to find any official statement from Rome either denying of affirming the validity of Liberal Catholic orders. The Old Catholic Church acknowledges their Sacraments, as their orders derive from the Old Catholics. However, I have read of Roman Catholic authors, including Fr. Konrad Algermissen in his book Christian Denominations, who affirm the LCC has valid sacraments. I have never read of a source which felt there was a reason to deny their validity.

While there is certainly a New Age and Theosophic strain that runs through the church, that is not what it is about, nor are these views required of its members.

Anything I say refering to the LCC is in reference to the original church, not any other groups which may have broken off since, which are indeed in a league all their own now.

 

[Esdra]

How can orders be partly valid?

Well, orders are only valid from the Catholic Church’s perspective when it was given by a Catholic Priest.
So, women ordination can’t be valid for example…

 

[Esdra]

I have not been able to find any official statement from Rome either denying of affirming the validity of Liberal Catholic orders. The Old Catholic Church acknowledges their Sacraments, as their orders derive from the Old Catholics. However, I have read of Roman Catholic authors, including Fr. Konrad Algermissen in his book Christian Denominations, who affirm the LCC has valid sacraments. I have never read of a source which felt there was a reason to deny their validity.

While there is certainly a New Age and Theosophic strain that runs through the church, that is not what it is about, nor are these views required of its members.

Anything I say refering to the LCC is in reference to the original church, not any other groups which may have broken off since, which are indeed in a league all their own now.

Hi

well not 100% sure myself.
I am from Central Europe and my mother tongue is German. I have found a German website.
I thought I have read somewhere that they don’t accept the sacraments and ordinations of other confessions.

This is what the German Wikipedia writes:

"Die liberalkatholische Kirche gehört keiner ökumenischen Gemeinschaft an.

Sie anerkennt Taufe und Weihen anderer christlicher Kirchen nicht an, und ihre Taufe und Sakramente werden von den übrigen christlichen Kirchen nicht anerkannt."

In English:
"The Liberal Catholic Church doesn’t belong to any eucumenic community.

It doesn’t recognise orders of other christian Churches as valid and their baptism and sacraments are not recognised by the other christian Churches as valid."

The German Wikipedia also says that there is a significant difference between the LCC in the US and the LCC in Europe:

"Liberalkatholische Kirche USA (LCCI) [Bearbeiten]

In der LCCI sind die theosophischen Glaubenssätze wie Reinkarnation fakultativ, ebenso vegetarische Ernährung. In der Liturgie können Traubensaft und Wein verwendet werden. Frauen können durch Zulassung der Frauenordination alle kirchlichen Ämter innehaben, homosexuelle Menschen können Priester werden und Priester können ein Gehalt beziehen.

Liberalkatholische Kirche Europa (LCC)
In der LCC sind die theosophischen Glaubenssätze fester Bestandteil der Lehre. Es gibt keine Frauenordination, worüber in der Kirche gegenwärtig debattiert wird, und Priester dürfen kein Gehalt beziehen. Vegetarische Ernährung und Traubensaft in der Liturgie sind obligatorisch."

---

In English:***
The LC in the USA:
In the LCCI are the theophistic believes like reincarnation not obligatoric, also vegetarian diet is not obligatoric. In mass wine AND grapefruit Juice can be used. Women and Homosexuals can get all orders. And Priests are allowed to get wages.

LCC in Europe:
The theophistic believes are obligatoric in their doctrine. There is no womens ordination (although there is at the moment a huge debate about that) and priests are not allowed to get wages for being a priest. Vegeterian Diet and grape-fruit juice are fixed parts of their liturgy.

For all those of you, who can speak, read, understand German here the Link.

However, concerning the LCC in Europe the information on wikipedia doesn’t seem to be too recent: on the homepage of the LCC in Austria it says:

"Deshalb haben bei uns alle Frauen, die die Bereitschaft und Eignung dafür zeigen, die Möglichkeit, alle Niederen und Höheren Weihen zu bekommen, genauso wie Männer. "

In English:
“…] Therefore all women who are ready to become a priest are allowed to get all minor and high ordinations just like men.”

In Christ,
Esdra

 

[EnchantedEve]

Hi

well not 100% sure myself.
I am from Central Europe and my mother tongue is German. I have found a German website.
I thought I have read somewhere that they don’t accept the sacraments and ordinations of other confessions.
This is what the German Wikipedia writes:
In English:
“The Liberal Catholic Church doesn’t belong to any eucumenic community.
It doesn’t recognise orders of other christian Churches as valid and their baptism and sacraments are not recognised by the other christian Churches as valid.”
The German Wikipedia also says that there is a significant difference between the LCC in the US and the LCC in Europe:

---

In English:***
The LC in the USA:
In the LCCI are the theophistic believes like reincarnation not obligatoric, also vegetarian diet is not obligatoric. In mass wine AND grapefruit Juice can be used. Women and Homosexuals can get all orders. And Priests are allowed to get wages.
LCC in Europe:
The theophistic believes are obligatoric in their doctrine. There is no womens ordination (although there is at the moment a huge debate about that) and priests are not allowed to get wages for being a priest. Vegeterian Diet and grape-fruit juice are fixed parts of their liturgy.
For all those of you, who can speak, read, understand German here the Link.
However, concerning the LCC in Europe the information on wikipedia doesn’t seem to be too recent: on the homepage of the LCC in Austria it says:
In English:
“…] Therefore all women who are ready to become a priest are allowed to get all minor and high ordinations just like men.”
In Christ,
Esdra

I am not entirely certain which groups the wikipedia article is referring to, since they seem to be wavering between saying LCC and LCCI, which are two entirely seperate groups.

I have no idea where the references to its sacraments and its views of their versus others validity. I have never read that anywhere else, not even in LC literature. In fact, the LCC Statement of Principals appears to flatly contradict it by saying they consider all sincere Christian worship “valid.” So this is probably an example of taking Wikipedia with a grain of salt. I would also note the English Wikipedia does not mention any of this.

I will also point out that although the LCCI tells everyone this, theosophical beliefs are not compulsory in the LCC, and neither is a vegetarian diet. I know LCC priests and neither are vegetarians.

The founding bishop, Bishop James Wedgwood, was consecrated a bishop by Bishop Willoughby, himself a Roman Catholic who lapsed Old Catholic and returned to Rome. Wedgwood was consecrated in 1916 in the pre-Vatican II Tridentine Latin rite, without any revisions.

For ease, I will list the groups in the Liberal Catholic movement, and based on my research, the status of their orders:

LCC (Old Synod)- Valid
LCC Grail Community- Possibly Valid
LCC (New Synod)- Invalid
LCC International- Invalid
LCC Theosophia Synod- Invalid
LC Apostolic Church- Invalid
Universal Catholic Church- Invalid
Young Rite- Invalid

Only the original LCC refuses to ordain women, marry homosexuals, and subtantially change their rite. The Liberal Rite is a careful revision of the pre-Vatican II rite, and some of their rites have retained the traditional essential form more carefully then the post-Vatican II rites have. In fact, priests ordained in the post-Vatican II rite must be conditionally reordained to become LCC priests, whereas SSPX and other traditional priests are accepted as priests unconditionally. They will also Confirm now conditionally, as they retain the traditional pre-Vatican II form, and the new Roman rite does not.

 

[Esdra]

I am not entirely certain which groups the wikipedia article is referring to, since they seem to be wavering between saying LCC and LCCI, which are two entirely seperate groups.

I have no idea where the references to its sacraments and its views of their versus others validity. I have never read that anywhere else, not even in LC literature. In fact, the LCC Statement of Principals appears to flatly contradict it by saying they consider all sincere Christian worship “valid.” So this is probably an example of taking Wikipedia with a grain of salt. I would also note the English Wikipedia does not mention any of this.

I will also point out that although the LCCI tells everyone this, theosophical beliefs are not compulsory in the LCC, and neither is a vegetarian diet. I know LCC priests and neither are vegetarians.

The founding bishop, Bishop James Wedgwood, was consecrated a bishop by Bishop Willoughby, himself a Roman Catholic who lapsed Old Catholic and returned to Rome. Wedgwood was consecrated in 1916 in the pre-Vatican II Tridentine Latin rite, without any revisions.

For ease, I will list the groups in the Liberal Catholic movement, and based on my research, the status of their orders:

LCC (Old Synod)- Valid
LCC Grail Community- Possibly Valid
LCC (New Synod)- Invalid
LCC International- Invalid
LCC Theosophia Synod- Invalid
LC Apostolic Church- Invalid
Universal Catholic Church- Invalid
Young Rite- Invalid

Only the original LCC refuses to ordain women, marry homosexuals, and subtantially change their rite. The Liberal Rite is a careful revision of the pre-Vatican II rite, and some of their rites have retained the traditional essential form more carefully then the post-Vatican II rites have. In fact, priests ordained in the post-Vatican II rite must be conditionally reordained to become LCC priests, whereas SSPX and other traditional priests are accepted as priests unconditionally. They will also Confirm now conditionally, as they retain the traditional pre-Vatican II form, and the new Roman rite does not.

Thank you for this informative post.

Yes, I guess that the LCC in Europe (there is btw also one in Austria where I am from) is VERY different from the one in the US.

I would consider the LCC Europe borderline to a sect - similar to SDA…

In Christ,
Esdra