Liberal theology being taught in adult faith formation

[trials]

Hi all,

I’m currently attending a Catholic faith formation course, and have been horrified at some of the watered down teachings of the Church that are being taught as fact - by very highly respected figures might I add - religious, Diocesan employees. Things like - we don’t talk about mortal sins anymore, we focus on the positive instead, we don’t need to place such an emphasis on Adoration, and Don’t rely too heavily on the Catechism, was the last pearl of wisdom imparted to us.

I ended up leaving my last class a few days ago in tears. I felt like Jesus was being spat at all over again. I have challenged the teachers on every unorthodox point they have made, and been confronted with brick walls, openly told I’m wrong. That doesn’t bother me, because I’m not confused, but other people in my class are totally confused.

Firstly is this liberalism common in the domain of adult faith formation?

Secondly, how do I combat it? Should I drop out of the course, I’m totally disillusioned.

 

[RyanBlack]

I’m Eastern Catholic, so I really don’t have a good idea as to how common this problem is. Here’s my suggestion. On matters where what is being taught truly conflicts with the Catholic faith (not merely a matter of a disagreement between you and the formation leader over matters where divergent views are permitted), discuss it with the pastor of the parish. If he refuses to rectify the matter, then perhaps you should bring it to the attention of the bishop.

 

[Corki]

Hi Trials,

It all depends on your purpose for taking the classes. I had a similar experience. But the classes I was taking were required by the diocese for catechist certification so I had little choice but to stick it out. I was forewarned, however. The pastor’s approval was required and my pastor told me I was going down to listen to the liberals. I just tried to take in the good and let the rest go. We had to do papers at the end of each class and I only included orthodox teaching in my papers, backing my positions up with solid sources. No one ever gave me any push back.

But if you are taking the classes purely for your own formation, you don’t have to stay. There are many options these days and I am sure you can find classes, elsewhere in the diocese or online that are more in line with authentic Church teaching.

Good luck.

 

[TEPO]

Hi all,

I’m currently attending a Catholic faith formation course, and have been horrified at some of the watered down teachings of the Church that are being taught as fact - by very highly respected figures might I add - religious, Diocesan employees. Things like - we don’t talk about mortal sins anymore, we focus on the positive instead, we don’t need to place such an emphasis on Adoration, and Don’t rely too heavily on the Catechism, was the last pearl of wisdom imparted to us.

I ended up leaving my last class a few days ago in tears. I felt like Jesus was being spat at all over again. I have challenged the teachers on every unorthodox point they have made, and been confronted with brick walls, openly told I’m wrong. That doesn’t bother me, because I’m not confused, but other people in my class are totally confused.

Firstly is this liberalism common in the domain of adult faith formation?

Secondly, how do I combat it? Should I drop out of the course, I’m totally disillusioned.

Thanks for starting this thread…! When I was confirmed a couple years ago in an adult confirmation class, I was’nt taught anything really about faith… Instead the class was informed that we should study-up on Catholic Social Teaching, which is based on social justice, society, government, politics, culture, peace and disarmament, the environment, voting, and law.

See for yourself if you’re unfamiliar with it… osjspm.org/catholic_social_teaching.aspx

 

[ChadS]

Thanks for starting this thread…! When I was confirmed a couple years ago in an adult confirmation class, I was’nt taught anything really about faith… Instead the class was informed that we should study-up on Catholic Social Teaching, which is based on social justice, society, government, politics, culture, peace and disarmament, the environment, voting, and law.

See for yourself if you’re unfamiliar with it… osjspm.org/catholic_social_teaching.aspx

Is your problem with the Church’s social teaching or what others think is the Church’s social teaching. In a lot of cases those two can vary by quite a bit. For example, at the link you listed I think all but one of the “Notable Documents” are Papal Encyclicals.

ChadS

 

[Zen_76]

I really don’t think it’s that big of a deal…I believe liberal theology is a good thing because it allows one to question matters of faith instead of just believing anything someone tells you. I will agree that there is a lack of a “sense of sin” but that’s not important…what’s important is we know that God exists and loves us all, likewise we should love him back. The rest is just details. The bottom line is, love God and your fellow man and everything will be okay.

 

[TEPO]

Is your problem with the Church’s social teaching or what others think is the Church’s social teaching. In a lot of cases those two can vary by quite a bit. For example, at the link you listed I think all but one of the “Notable Documents” are Papal Encyclicals.

ChadS

I guess my problem lies in the level of importance that was placed on Catholic Social Teaching (CST). I don’t doubt that the major themes of CST were based on Papal Encyclicals, but to address them on such a level was way too political and worldly for me. What ever happened to the exploration of the supernatural aspects of our Church…? What ever happened to the “dont do’s” as opposed to the “do’s” -like why Catholics dont do this or dont do that. What about the afterlife…?

In all honesty, I just felt a little let down.

I understand that the Church on earth must play a role in what goes on here on earth, so would’nt it be more important to get to the roots of what we should or shouldnt do personally as opposed to which way we act in the voters booth…? —> like not taking part in ABC, and the negative effects that have come about since ABC came about, etc…?

 

[TEPO]

I will agree that there is a lack of a “sense of sin” but that’s not important…what’s important is we know that God exists and loves us all, likewise we should love him back. The rest is just details.

I’m sorry, but I’m going to have to openly disagree with the above quote… Sorry, I know you are trying to live in a positive light, but I’m unable to follow you down that path… Not that you asked me to, but -you know what I mean.

I think Catholics need to be reinforced on what is acceptable behavior according to God.

 

[Corki]

Is your problem with the Church’s social teaching or what others think is the Church’s social teaching. In a lot of cases those two can vary by quite a bit. For example, at the link you listed I think all but one of the “Notable Documents” are Papal Encyclicals.

ChadS

I am not TEPO but I think that it is only possible to live a live consistent with the Church’s social teaching if you are first grounded in the Church’s faith teaching. Otherwise it isn’t much more that “do good ism”.

I really don’t think it’s that big of a deal…I believe liberal theology is a good thing because it allows one to question matters of faith instead of just believing anything someone tells you. I will agree that there is a lack of a “sense of sin” but that’s not important…what’s important is we know that God exists and loves us all, likewise we should love him back. The rest is just details. The bottom line is, love God and your fellow man and everything will be okay.

Again, if a person is going to develop actually inteligent questions on matters of faith, he or she must first learn the teaching. Someone who just thinks that love is all we need, is only reading part of God’s word. Someone going to Adult Confirmation classes deserve the full package.

 

[Brendan]

I. I will agree that there is a lack of a “sense of sin” but that’s not important…what’s important is we know that God exists and loves us all, likewise we should love him back. The rest is just details. The bottom line is, love God and your fellow man and everything will be okay.

But that is the very root of having a sense of sin. We can hardly claim to be loving God back when we do that which offends Him.

Thus one cannot claim to be loving God without having a sense of sin.

 

[kentuckyliz]

I started reading a very good book today–The Fulfillment of all Desire by Ralph Martin, putting the spiritual teachings of some great saints and doctors of the church into contemporary expression for us, because the originals aren’t easy to read.

The earliest phases of spiritual development in the purgative way is conversion, turning to God, and learning what He wants–developing a healed morality, and being scrubbed of the effects of original and personal sin. Anyone who minimizes sin or the necessity of this process is cheating the faithful. Often people who minimize sin are justifying their own sins to themselves. They think God is as easily fooled as everyone else that they’re fooling. And as long as you’re justifying yourself, Jesus can’t justify you. You can’t be forgiven of sins you haven’t repented of.

Vatican II issued this directive: the universal call to holiness. Refusing to teach true morality is an abject failure of the council’s commands.

I have taken online seminars with Catholic Distance University, www.cdu.edu - for no academic credit, each seminar is $150. They have a catechism series. They are solid. I’ve never been taught fluff there. I have a finely tuned B.S. detector and it hasn’t gone off.

Hopefully these resources can help you. Embrace the catechism–it is a trustworthy guide and your catechist’s minimizing it is wrong–it is the catechism of the Second Vatican Council–its fruit and fulfillment. A sure norm of the faith.

 

[kentuckyliz]

By the way, social justice without personal morality is a sham. It’s the lack of personal morality that leads to social injustice in the first place. To ignore personal morality is to wash the outside of the cup.

 

[bkayw]

I really don’t think it’s that big of a deal…I believe liberal theology is a good thing because it allows one to question matters of faith instead of just believing anything someone tells you.

Like that pain in the but_ Pope and his Bishops?

I will agree that there is a lack of a “sense of sin” but that’s not important…

The Sacrament of Reconciliation is “not important”?

what’s important is we know that God exists and loves us all, likewise we should love him back. The rest is just details.

Like the pesky adult examination guides?

The bottom line is, love God and your fellow man and everything will be okay.

 

[PbloPicasso]

Hi all,

I’m currently attending a Catholic faith formation course, and have been horrified at some of the watered down teachings of the Church that are being taught as fact - by very highly respected figures might I add - religious, Diocesan employees. Things like - we don’t talk about mortal sins anymore, we focus on the positive instead, we don’t need to place such an emphasis on Adoration, and Don’t rely too heavily on the Catechism, was the last pearl of wisdom imparted to us.

I ended up leaving my last class a few days ago in tears. I felt like Jesus was being spat at all over again. I have challenged the teachers on every unorthodox point they have made, and been confronted with brick walls, openly told I’m wrong. That doesn’t bother me, because I’m not confused, but other people in my class are totally confused.

Firstly is this liberalism common in the domain of adult faith formation?

Secondly, how do I combat it? Should I drop out of the course, I’m totally disillusioned.

Before I read any responses to your post I wanted to say what comes to my mind first.
Pull out the torches and burn em. She’s a witch, a witch, she’s a witch. Let’s burn herrrrrr.
I believe these Catholic liberals are on their desperate last stand, waiting to fall into the fiery pits of hell, hell on earth that is. These folks are being kicked out the door as we speak. THANKS GOD!

Our particular parish is not so bad, but there are still misguided folks in the parish that when given opportunity to teach have taught my teenage son wrong history and wrong theology, which fortunately for him his Christian upbringing and observation to reason has provoked him to ask us questions about it. We got put on the “confrontational” and “bully” list as a result of just trying to handle the situation civily. Some clergy and unfortunately, now laity or “Professional Catholics”, as the Holy Father puts it, think we are to follow them without question. How dare they misuse and abuse their authority. There is no authority in teaching heresy under any circumstaces. Under no condition are we to tolerate that type of dissent and them expect us to shut up. Know… remember this…

“Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country”?

“Now is the time for all good Catholics to come to the aid of Christ’s Church”!
The recent correction on laity blessing people during communion is a joy to my heart. I spent the last 4 years questioning this “charitably” and received the same response from the same good priest twice. The only problem is that it was not the correct response and ironically, today he stated that we, EMHCs, are to immediately cease blessing people when they come forward, but then he tacked on that we are now to place our hand on their shoulder (another abuse). I read a document that clearly states we are NOT to do this written from the Vatican. I never saw this among the other heretical and abuses when I was Catholic from the end of the 70’s and all of the 80’s. The heresies were so deep and abusive my father was convinced the Catholic Church no longer exists and so I was also convinced that the Church was either now, recently, apostate or had always been and I just didn’t know until 1989 when I defected to search for the one true church, while residing in the Church of Christ. It was history and biblical knowledge that brought me back to the Catholic Church. So now when (pardon for saying it this way) “knuckleheaded” clergy or lay people try to convince me of the validity of a heresy. I just cringe and state my business. I “BCV” them to death and cite historical references to the problem. I’m a former seminarian on top of that, which means I saw even bigger problems developing in the 70’s and 80’s. There were known homosexuals among us and until much later were allowed to remain among us. I nearly lost my faith in God, not just the Church. Shame on me, but at least God spared me and taught me through my searching, constantly questioning everything I was taught and believed. Ultimately it finally paid off. Now I just have to learn to curve the tone and word choices that get me into trouble. But I am getting better.

So many people fake knowledge just to be impressive, to control and to feel powerful. They do it for attention and putting you in your place, even if you are correct. I’d say that most clergy know better as well as are fearful of speaking openly because is they did they might lose their faculties within the diocese they serve, which is usually the same place their families live. Remember Fatima?

 

[ChadS]

I guess my problem lies in the level of importance that was placed on Catholic Social Teaching (CST). I don’t doubt that the major themes of CST were based on Papal Encyclicals, but to address them on such a level was way too political and worldly for me. What ever happened to the exploration of the supernatural aspects of our Church…? What ever happened to the “dont do’s” as opposed to the “do’s” -like why Catholics dont do this or dont do that. What about the afterlife…?

In all honesty, I just felt a little let down.

I understand that the Church on earth must play a role in what goes on here on earth, so would’nt it be more important to get to the roots of what we should or shouldnt do personally as opposed to which way we act in the voters booth…? —> like not taking part in ABC, and the negative effects that have come about since ABC came about, etc…?

I see exactly what you mean. Perhaps the problem with that particular course is that it’s description wasn’t too clear or maybe at the last minute it was changed. I’ve been in classes before where what the class is described as is quite different from what is taught.

The things you want to learn about are still certainly out there and haven’t been over shadowed by the social teaching. I’m sure there are s till many programs and lessons you could take that would cover the exact things you want to learn about.

I guess the last thing I’d say is that the social teaching can’t be properly understood without the teachings on faith and morals and out understanding of faith and morals can grow deeper when we learn about the Church’s social teaching.

ChadS

 

[Irishzookeeper]

All I can say is that I have helped out with RCIA and children’s faith formation at different parishes and unfortunately this kind of teaching seems to be considered the “norm” in the Seattle area. Even some of the folks teaching the Catechetical Certification programs are messing with the truth. No wonder our state overwhelmingly votes for pro choice candidates, they don’t think they need to acknowledge it’s a sin to kill an unborn baby. It’s all about our carbon footprint. Earth is their god. There was a northwest catholic woman’s convocation held in Bellevue, Wa recently that was advertised in some of the parish bulletins. You can do a google search to find it. They really had weird topics about the earth being divine and stuff. They had Coke Roberts as one of their keynote speakers! She is totally pro abortion! This is the kind of stuff that will happen in a diocese if the infection doesn’t stop. It’s like sepsis, an infection that gets in the bloodstream and spreads very quickly. Our diocese now has people in authority at many parishes who are calling the shots and making it very difficult to even report the heresy, without some sort of backlash. Good people will let their kids go through the RE classes, with controversial teachings or they will be denied their child’s first communion. It’s an awful choice! This diocese doesn’t recognize home based religious education as a valid option for sacramental prep. So…the parents who are lucky enough to know what was taught, end up having to reteach the truth later. The unlucky kids go on thinking it’s ok to skip Mass on Sunday to watch a ballgame and their parents are clueless. Even while teaching RE, we were told that we were to teach things a certain way, incorrectly. It felt like there was the"state run church" vs “the underground church” it felt like a taste of communism. Scary!
We now have a new Archbishop who is faithful to church teaching, but some fear the level of infection may reach all the way to his staff and advisors who would prefer to keep the wool pulled over his eyes. St. Michael the Archangel, Defend us in battle…!!!

 

[trials]

Thank you so much for your replies, kentuckyliz and others, I’m glad I’m not the only one feeling horrified at this.

As for the sense of sin debate, I know how important it is to have a clear-cut definition of sin from the Church because my past is one of drifting from God, getting up to my neck in sin (let’s call a spade a spade) and the first stage of my journey back to the faith was painfully purgative. It had to be. Every time I tried to pray I realised that I had these mountains of unconfessed sins between myself and God, and boy did I feel good when they were wiped away in Confession. Plus I read and prayed with the Catechism and realised where I needed to be heading. It spiritually made sense to me, I didn’t feel like I’d read a list of do’s and don’ts, it was within a much wider context of spiritual growth.

This course was supposed to be an aid to my faith development, and it is also seen as a course for wannabe teachers of catechesis. We have now been taught that everyone’s spiritual state within the Catholic Church is equally valid, whether they be regular churchgoers or not. I know where I’m coming from, and when I was out in wishy-washy land, I couldn’t have been further from God if I tried. Also, that totally goes against the idea of the narrow gate. Should we then confirm people in their sin and fail to teach them the truth that can save them?

Everything up to this point was fine, but now I have never felt more disillusioned in my life. The diocese pays for these people to teach the faith. What is going on? And never before have I felt more sapped of the will to evangelise. I honestly feel like I have been slapped back into place, and that I should just go back to my seat in Church and not suggest anything like evangelisation ever again. (Sorry for the rant)

 

[Barbkw]

"As for the sense of sin debate, I know how important it is to have a clear-cut definition of sin from the Church because my past is one of drifting from God, getting up to my neck in sin (let’s call a spade a spade) and the first stage of my journey back to the faith was painfully purgative. It had to be. "

My journey back to Jesus’ Sacraments was like your experience and I second your wisdom concerning the “clear-cut definition of sin”.

Conversion both requires winning the soul over to Christ and most importantly continually saving the soul from drifting away from Jesus.

Christians and Catholics need to know what the guidelines are in developing a right conscience. If they don’t know that (or don’t want to know what right conscience is) they are slipping into a mind set of moral relativism.

Spiritual director, Fr. Altier’s, adult examination guide:

catholicparents.org/oxcart/Examination%20of%20Conscience.pdf

 

[Irishzookeeper]

Re: post by Trials: I honestly feel like I have been slapped back into place, and that I should just go back to my seat in Church and not suggest anything like evangelisation ever again.

I totally know how you feel, because I have felt that way for last 20 years. I would think about it, but out of fear that I would say something to the wrong person, stayed silent. It wasn’t til I was baptized in the Holy Spirit after attending a Life in the Spirit seminar that I gained the strength to feel like I could begin to stand up and fight for the truth. I was given a desire to learn more about the true faith so that I could be better equipped to defend it. This is spiritual warfare! We can’t do it alone. We need the Holy Spirit to guide us and strengthen us as we fight this fight. We also need to pray for those we are fighting against the truth.
If you are afraid to go to a Life in the Spirit seminar because of who may be running it, then pray to the Holy Spirit to guide you and give you the courage to deal with these people. Pray the St.Michael prayer, and the rosary. These are real weapons that we should use often.
People do convert, people can learn, you are likely dealing with folks who have been taught this stuff by people in authority when they were in school, either as children or in college. They may even have had doubts about it at the time, but were afraid to speak up and figured "“nobody else us complaining, so it must be right.” Once Mother Angelica was asked, “How do we love our enemy if we can’t stand them?” She replied, "Jesus told us to love our enemy, He never said we had to like them. If we love them, then we will care enough about them to pray for them. By praying for them to repent and be saved, we ARE loving them.We need to pray for those people teaching the wrong stuff, that they may come to know the truth and ammend the way they teach. If we don’t pray for them, they may even fall further from the truth. Remember God loves them too and wants them to follow His teachings.
Someone needs to complain… Of course, depending on your situation, you may feel a need to watch your back. Pray to the a holy Spirit to guide you with this decision. If we don’t stand up for what is right now while we can, there may come a time when this kind of thinking takes our country down the path of socialism where we truly will be slapped back into place, our worse!
I will be praying for you. Take care, and may God Bless you.

 

[grannymh]

I really don’t think it’s that big of a deal…I believe liberal theology is a good thing because it allows one to question matters of faith instead of just believing anything someone tells you. I will agree that there is a lack of a “sense of sin” but that’s not important…what’s important is we know that God exists and loves us all, likewise we should love him back. The rest is just details. The bottom line is, love God and your fellow man and everything will be okay.

May I respectfully point out that today’s liberal theology does not allow anyone to question its conclusions. It took months of repeated questioning just to get a liberal poster to state what she or he actually believed was a truth in the first three chapters of Genesis. Those statements were not open to discussion because basic Catholic teaching had already been ruled out.

That “sense of sin” is the liberal code name for denying God’s relationship with you and me. By the way, that is the relationship which determines whether we accept or deny God at our death.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.